On Aug 2, 2012, at 2:37 PM, [email protected] wrote:

> [Dave]
>> Why would one arbitrarily limit [the social level] to humans with no real 
>> reason?
> 
> The spov levels are neither "arbitrary" nor without "real reason"?
> What you are asking for is something that distinguishes the human social 3rd 
> level
> from other animals' 2nd level.
> IMHO this distinction lies in the self-conscious rule-following and 
> institutions of humans.
> However, note that there is nothing in principle that prevents other animals 
> from
> obtaining the 3rd level.  It just hadn't happened in Pirsig's time.
> And conversely there is the human social 2nd level.
> Craig   
> 
If what Craig says about the levels is true, this just relegates such levels to 
a simplistic scientific approach, and Quality is not even necessary.  I do not 
think that I'd appropriate, and even just plain wrong.

Pirsig is attempting to provide a metaphysics based on Quality.  It is how he 
sees reality coming from the viewpoint of Quality.  The levels themselves are 
immaterial.  It is what they say about Quality.  That man is smarter than 
animals is not important.

What is important is that we exist as four levels.  Man did not provide these 
leves except as a conceptual ghost.  What needs to be understood is why Pirsig 
chose these levels as a means for describing a world based on Quality.  

The social level is not the result of people getting together, it is the other 
way around.    There is no fundamental difference between man and other 
animals.  Animals also exist as four levels, just in different ratios.  Let's 
get past this diversion into first grade biology (or sociology), this is not 
the reason why Pirsig brings in the levels.

Let's stick to a metaphysics based on Quality.

How is the metaphysics presented by Pirsig the best use of Quality?  What is it 
about Quality that causes us to gravitate towards this metaphysics?  Why do we 
feel MOQ is appropriate when seeing existence from the perspective of Quality?

This would be a more fruitful discussion than trying to point to the 
differences between Man and other animals.  There is plenty of that already on 
the Internet.

Mark
> 
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