dmb says: I'm impressed with your reply, Ron. It looks like real thought and work went into the making of it. Thanks for that. Seriously. More to say, but later on.
> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:43:44 -0700 > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] The Art of Philosophy > > > > dmb says: > Well, basically we're talking about the long-term effects of the Platonic > legacy and he is, along with Socrates and Aristotle, the founder of Western > philosophy. Very roughly speaking, we're talking about what happened to the > Sophists back in ancient Greece and it's kinda like Socrates built them a > casket, Plato put them in it and Aristotle nailed it shut. > > "Rhetoric is an art, Aristotle began, because it can be reduced to a rational > system of order. That just left Phaedrus aghast. Stopped. He’d been prepared > to decode messages of great subtlety, systems of great complexity in order to > understand the deeper inner meaning of Aristotle, claimed by many to be the > greatest philosopher of all time. And then to get hit, right off, straight in > the face, with an asshole statement like that! It really shook him." > > "Between the lines Phædrus read no doubts, no sense of awe, only the eternal > smugness of the professional academician. Did Aristotle really think his > students would be better rhetoricians for having learned all these endless > names and relationships? And if not, did he really think he was teaching > rhetoric? Phædrus thought that he really did. There was nothing in his style > to indicate that Aristotle was ever one to doubt Aristotle. Phædrus saw > Aristotle astremendously satisfied with this neat little stunt of naming and > classifying everything. His world began and ended withthis stunt. The reason > why, if he were not more than two thousand years dead, he would have gladly > rubbed him out isthat he saw him as a PROTOTYPE for the many millions of > self-satisfied and truly ignorant teachers throughout history who have smugly > and callously killed the creative spirit of their students with this dumb > ritual of analysis, this blind, rote, eternal naming of things. > Walk into any of a hundred thousand classrooms today and hear the teachers > divide and subdivide and interrelate and establish "principles" and study > "methods" and what you will hear is the ghost of Aristotle speaking down > through the centuries...the desiccating lifeless voice of dualistic reason." > > [Ron replies:] > Those who are to communicate with one another by way of arguement, that is, > in order to persuade one > another, must have some common understanding. Every word must therefore be > intelligible. Art to Aristotle > is a discipline, "Art is born when out of the many bits of information > derived from experience there emerges > a grasp of those similarities in view of which they are unified whole." > Rhetoric is an art, but as any art, a discipline must be mastered first, as > the skillfull mechanic. Then when those > basic rules of meaning have become second nature, one may create with freedom > and skill, which is where > Pirsig ultimately ends up within his own metaphysics. > I think if one looks closly at Aristotle, it becomes increasingly difficult > to discern exactly where he > actually crushes or kills creativity, but he does call for a development of > skill and craftsmanship as > a proper foundation for the creative spirit. > The ritual was passed on and lost it's original meaning. What the crime > REALLY is, is the blind following > of ritual without understanding of the principles involved. It's easy to > point to one particular person and blame > all the stupidity of blind conformity of western civilization on them but > it's much more difficult to inquire as to > how and why it happened. It does make for good reading and Pirsig used it > skillfully but in the end he makes > the same call for precision consistancy and clarity in meaning and when we > look back at the beginning of > his journey where he makes those comments quoted above we really see the > intensity and the drive to get > to the bottom of the problem. One mans journey into the understanding of the > origins of western rationality > to which he then expands apon, "to untangle a knot one must first see it". > > Thnx Dave > .. > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
