Hi folks
so you can turn DQ into SQ, some trick, can all DQ be turned into SQ, is
there order
in all flux to be magically turned into SQ as you wish, what nonsense! Or is
there some
special DQ that can be turned into concepts, I know let's call it SQ. You
guys are
talking drivel! You think all order looks like an object, pure SOM! I'll
stick to the MOQ thanks.
DM
-----Original Message-----
From: ARLO JAMES BENSINGER JR
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:49 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] Putting SOM back into the MOQ by excluding SQ, let's not
do that say some of us
[David]
... My point is that patterns have to exist in experience before you then go
on to conceptualise them...
[DMB]
No, David, that's wrong. Patterns do NOT exist in experience before you
conceptualize them. Patterns ARE conceptualizations and those concepts are
derived from DQ, which is pre-conceputal or unpatterned experience.
[Arlo]
Right, DMB, and I feel like this is ground we keep going over. David's
statement can easily be seen as "objects have to exist before the subject
goes on to conceptualize them". Its using "MOQ terminology" but it really
shows a complete 'miss' of the MOQ's central premise. You can go back to ZMM
for this simply and elegantly stated:
"The very existence of subject and object themselves is deduced from the
Quality event. The Quality event is the cause of the subjects and objects,
which are then mistakenly presumed to be the cause of the Quality!" (ZMM)
In LILA, Pirsig expands up this:
By this [James] meant that subjects and objects are not the starting points
of experience. Subjects and objects are secondary. They are concepts derived
from something more fundamental which he described as "the immediate flux of
life which furnishes the material to our later reflection with its
conceptual categories." In this basic flux of experience, the distinctions
of reflective thought, such as those between consciousness and content,
subject and object, mind and matter, have not yet emerged in the forms which
we make them. Pure experience cannot be called either physical or psychical:
it logically precedes this distinction. ... What the Metaphysics of Quality
adds to James' pragmatism and his radical empiricism is the idea that the
primal reality from which subjects and objects spring is value.
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