>>> [David]
>>> But can you not see how this is against the MOQ which differs from Zen in 
>>> that the still values static patterns and the trail of evolution they 
>>> create?
>> 
>> [Marsha]
>> I value static patterns, and I am not sure that Zen does not value static 
>> quality.  Doesn't Buddhism warn against a 'negative grasping' based on 
>> ignorance and greed, not necessarily the value and its evolutionary trail.  
>> I doubt that Zen Buddhism is trying to transform humans into comatose 
>> zombies.  
> 
> [David]
> The small self which is the patterns capable of apprehending Dynamic Quality 
> in Zen Buddhism is an illusion.  You know -'a mirage', 'a figment of the 
> imagination', 'doesn't actually exist' . In other words it's merely a vessel 
> to experience the Big Self - enlightenment.  The small self of the patterns, 
> with the suffering which the patterns bring, is not as important in buddhism 
> as it is in the MOQ.  As Pirsig writes:
> 
> "The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going 
> somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological 
> patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the 
> quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of 
> this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay 
> attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering 
> which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by 
> the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, 
> just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to 
> propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. "

Marsha:
The Ultimate Truth (Dynamic Quality) is something each individual must realize 
for themselves; it is the still point at the center of the wheel.  
 
[Ron]
Right, being a comatose zombie, why bother with where the cart is going right?
 
 
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