David, On Jul 28, 2013, at 9:35 AM, David Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> [David] >>> But can you not see how this is against the MOQ which differs from Zen in >>> that the still values static patterns and the trail of evolution they >>> create? >> >> [Marsha] >> I value static patterns, and I am not sure that Zen does not value static >> quality. Doesn't Buddhism warn against a 'negative grasping' based on >> ignorance and greed, not necessarily the value and its evolutionary trail. >> I doubt that Zen Buddhism is trying to transform humans into comatose >> zombies. > > [David] > The small self which is the patterns capable of apprehending Dynamic Quality > in Zen Buddhism is an illusion. You know -'a mirage', 'a figment of the > imagination', 'doesn't actually exist' . In other words it's merely a vessel > to experience the Big Self - enlightenment. The small self of the patterns, > with the suffering which the patterns bring, is not as important in buddhism > as it is in the MOQ. As Pirsig writes: > > "The MOQ sees the wheel of karma as attached to a cart that is going > somewhere - from quantum forces through inorganic forces and biological > patterns and social patterns to the intellectual patterns that perceive the > quantum forces. In the sixth century B.C. in India there was no evidence of > this kind of evolutionary progress, and Buddhism, accordingly, does not pay > attention to it. Today it’s not possible to be so uninformed. The suffering > which the Buddhists regard as only that which is to be escaped, is seen by > the MOQ as merely the negative side of the progression toward Quality (or, > just as accurately, the expansion of quality). Without the suffering to > propel it, the cart would not move forward at all. " Marsha: The Ultimate Truth (Dynamic Quality) is something each individual must realize for themselves; it is the still point at the center of the wheel. That still point is not anybody's or any things. In meditation, you're moving towards that. You are letting go of all patterns: inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. The patterns are "killed", or let go, in order to realize the still point in the center of the wheel, the silence. The letting go is not annihilation or a rejection, but it gives you the perspective and peace of mind to understand the whole from being at (experiencing) the center instead out on the circumference where you just get whirled about. >>>> [Marsha] >>>> This is there for you to see, if you will only look. If a metaphysics is >>>> a theory about reality, you might want to take a look. As both the Buddha >>>> and RMP say, see for yourself. Or do you suppose namedropping 'Heidegger' >>>> in a sentence makes you a philosopher? >>> >>> [David] >>> A metaphysics is a static quality thing which describes that which cannot >>> ever be described. >> >> [Marsha] >> You have a definition of metaphysics that seems rather limited. I >> understand metaphysics to be the exploration of 'what we can know and how we >> can know it?' > > [David] > Marsha - What can we know and how can we know it? Marsha: I have not found anything that can be known conceptually with absolute certainty. We know static quality conditionally (relatively). What do you, David Harding, think can we know and how do we can know it? > Can we only know Dynamic Quality? Marsha: I don't believe I ever made such a statement about Dynamic Quality, and I have no way to answer such a question. > Can we ever know that anything existed before we think about it? Marsha: Mu. > Can you ever see the value of thinking about static quality and making the > assumption that things exist before we think about them? Marsha: Oh you've switched from using "pretend" to "making an assumption"; isn't language fun? I already addressed this in my previous post: "There might be good reasons in science to pretend [make an assumption]? Isn't that what David Morey is going on about?" Marsha Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
