Thanks Ant. I think the step for static patterns from biological into social patterns would be more easy to track than detecting where the sensed time begins. Sensed time must be present for example for inorganic ingredients in chemical reactions, like the combustion in an engine, to work good. Biological patterns that eat other biological and chemical patterns to gain weight and survive must also have a sense of timing to catch it at the right moment. We can see it also in different simple patterns that have the ability to change speed, which is a dynamic and time-sensible pattern.
My thoughts today is this: Some of the simplest social patterns are those that can be found among biological patterns that benefits by cooperation with other molecular machines. The limiter between mitosis and meisois is interesting as meiosis are made by and producing different copies that in an organized social structure will fill different roles in the social pattern. But I think that social structures could be found before that among identical organic patterns. And how about flowers? They're copulating male to female but do they cooperate and do they take care of their little seedlings? Have it, dear friend Jan-Anders 8 jul 2014 x kl. 19.49 skrev Ant McWatt: > Cheers for that Jan. > > It's really heartening to read that someone somewhere has made careful and > constructive use of the various MOQ texts and papers out there especially > that 1999 paper that I co-wrote with Eric Priezkalns (which is rarely > mentioned). Strangely enough, I was just speaking to Eric recently (after > about a gap of a couple of years). He "officially" gave up philosophy a few > years ago but I am encouraging to return to it even in an informal way. It > would be great if I could convince him to write another philosophy paper but > We will see! > > http://robertpirsig.org/Evolution.htm > > Eric also has a blog which (thoough not related directly to the MOQ) has many > interesting insights of his over the years. This can be found here: > > http://halfthoughts.com > > Eric (also a mathematician) was probably the most gifted individual > (intellectually) that I met at the Liverpool Philosphy Dept. and has recently > retired in his mid forties! > > Otherwise, I better say that I completely re-wrote our 1999 paper as an > addendum for my PhD so - especially as I only "nailed down the concepts of > change and space-time in my own mind by the time the PhD was finalised in > 2004 - it's probably better for the "average" MOQer to use that as this "Step > Zero" that you and Arlo have been discussing recently! The addendum can be > downloaded for free at: > > http://robertpirsig.org/MOQTime.htm > > Best wishes, as ever, > > Ant > > > ----------------------------------------- > > Jan Anders stated July 7th 2014: > > Thanks Arlo for this summary. > > I think its now time for discussing step two. The second step in the > intellectual journey up the levels. Inability to understand the levels causes > a lot of confusion here. We all know that the rules for participation in this > forum is at least that you have read ZMM AND LILA. Reading, however but not > surprisingly, does not guarantee an understanding of the same. (You see what > you see and measure your mate with your own wit that is close to your own > mind while his is at a distance.) > > > The starting point of this discussion is ANTHONY MCWATT of Liverpool > University, & ERIC PRIEZKALNS's excellent little essay called "Evolution, > Time and order" (full name: The Role of Evolution, Time and Order in Robert > Pirsig's "Metaphysics of Quality"). > > Step number zero is the one about change. The first step into the inorganic > existence was the very first change, which demarked the first occurence of > time. I call i step zero as it comes from just nowhere, the mystic area of Q. > > "The MOQ starts with the source of undifferentiated perception itself as the > ultimate reality. The very first differentiation is probably `change`. The > second one may be `before and after`. From this sense of `before and after` > emerge more complex concepts of time." (letter from ROBERT M. PIRSIG to > Anthony McWatt, February 23rd, 1998) > > This was discussed here a while ago in a thread called "step one" which > eventually concluded in some kind of common agreement that step one (from the > inorganic into the organic level) was by the first succesful reproduction of > an organism. Reproduction is the solution to the problem with complicated > inorganic patterns depletion by age. Reproduction saves the orginal pattern > before it loses its art. Inorganic patterns does not have to reproduce > themselves as they are so stable "constructions" already. > > > Now, what about step two? In Lila we can read that it is something about how > the reproduction change from direct selfcopying into the superior schem > called sexual reproduction which results in different copies that fit > together in a social organisation that is superior to pure biological > patterns. The social patterns are controlling and using the biological > patterns, are dependant of biological patterns but social patterns are using > biological structures for its own purpose. > > "the shift in cell reproduction from mitosis to meiosis to permit sexual > choice and allow huge DNA diversification is a Dynamic advance. So is the > collective organization of cells into metazoan societies called plants and > animals. So are sexual choice, symbiosis, death and regeneration, > communality, communication, speculative thought, curiosity and art. Most of > these, when viewed in a substance-centered evolutionary way are thought of as > mere incidental properties of the molecular machine. But in a value-centered > explanation of evolution they are close to the Dynamic process itself, > pulling the pattern of life forward to greater levels of versatility and > freedom." > > (Quoted from LILA, Chapter 11) > > I think its very important to have a clear understanding of this. (Prepare > for using the slow parts of your brain. When you get it, you're automatically > qualified for a free trip to the Chronosynclastic Infundibulum by > Prometheus-5. Look! No drugs! Dreams and fantasies only!) > > When we have done step two clear we can go on to the next step: step three. > The understanding of the evolutionary step from the social level into the > intellectual level. > > . > > . > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
