[Arlo] >I see "betterness" as the reason anything moves from > point A to point B. > >Can you think of anything that moves from A to B because of > >"worseness"? Or, if > >its a completely indifferent state, why move?
Err, Jos scratches head.... Try this: Various chambers contain inert (and uncharged, helium, xenon, argon etc) but comercially valuable purified confined gases, dividers are removed such that spontaneously the gases diffuse into one another. Which state is "better", pure usefull substrates or the melange? (Assuming hypothetically that: No bonding is occurring and there are no energetics changes in the 1st state as compared to the second and that the primary arrangement of mollecules (irrespective of compound)in state one and two are identical in terms of velocity, realtive distances etc) The only difference is subjective cultural/intellectual value in the eyes of the observer, to whom the resulting spontaneously occurring result is has almost no value as compared with the highly valuable starting point. Discuss. > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of MarshaV > Sent: 08 March 2007 20:08 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] Oneness, Dualism & Intellect > > > > Arlo, > > Seems like an excellent answer! > > Marsha > > > At 01:56 PM 3/8/2007, Arlo wrote: > >[Arlo previously] > >Here, with evolution, we see a singular process (the > movement of patterns > >towards "betterness") occurring throughout nature and > history. I think it's a > >safe inference to say this process will continue. Indeed, I > think evolution is > >simply the visible manifestation of Quality. > > > >[Case] > >Arlo, you have made this sort of statement several times and while > >it jibes with > >Pirsig, it does not accord well with evolutionary theory as > I understand it. > >What is this "betterness"? Is this "betterness" in the sense > that history is > >written by the survivors so it is or was better for them? > > > >[Arlo] > >Hi Case. Your question seems to focus primarily on social-historical > >evolution. > >In this sense, yes, I'd argue that people act in accordance > to what they think > >is "better", and history tends to side with the victors of > conflict. Don't > >confuse, however, my statement that things evolve towards > betterness with the > >idea of a straight, upward-slanting line. > > > >Violence is often used to reify static patterns and stifle, > or even destroy, > >movement towards "betterness" that threatens the foundations > of instantiated > >power. History could be seen as a constant struggle to move > forward when each > >step forward creates additional webs of power that want to > stop that movement. > > > >In the aggregate, however, and we could be talking tens of > thousands of years, > >the overall tendency is towards Quality (if you prefer that over > >"betterness"). > >Our lives are in nearly all ways "better" than early human life. > >Does that mean > >we haven't misstepped, or ran too quickly towards a false > idea? Not at all, we > >most certainly have. > > > >The question also harkens back to how we fix a belief that > something is > >"better". Many Germans felt following Hitler was movement towards > >"betterness", > >as did the flood of European immigrants who decimated the Native > >populations of > >this land. This is why I find critical thinking to be so, > well, critical. > >Peirce identified four ways we "fix" our beliefs; tenacity, > >authority, a priori > >and scientific methodology. Although Peirce was not able to comment > >on Pirsig's > >extension of science, the basic tenants seem to reveal that > most people are > >satisfied relying on tenacity and authority to fix many, if > not most, of their > >beliefs. This was the central problem of The Reich and the > Native American > >exterminations. Power, in these cases centralized in Europe, > manipulated the > >understanding of "better" to advance their own power, while > most simply bought > >in either out of fear or promises of sharing in the power. > > > >Also realize that I place no preeminent, extra-natural role > to "man". There is > >no extra-natural entity protecting us, as "his children", > from the natural > >processes of biological and inorganic reality. An asteroid > is an asteroid, a > >virus is a virus, ice ages come and go, and we can only > respond, and maybe not > >when the time comes and we are driven into extinction. In a > sense, of course, > >that asteroid is itself following inorganic quality, it is doing > >what asteroids > >do, and while its existence follows inorganic quality, it > may very well bring > >about the end of certain biological and social and > intellectual patterns. > > > >[Case] > >Or do you see this as "betterness" in some metaphysical or > cosmological sense? > >This smacks of teleology and Microsoft Word does not even recognize > >"betterness" as a word. > > > >[Arlo] > >My version of Word does not recognize "Machinima" either. Should you > >stop using > >it? I see "betterness" as the reason anything moves from > point A to point B. > >Can you think of anything that moves from A to B because of > >"worseness"? Or, if > >its a completely indifferent state, why move? > > > > > >moq_discuss mailing list > >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >Archives: > >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > PLEASE NOTE: THE ABOVE MESSAGE WAS RECEIVED FROM THE INTERNET. > On entering the GSI, this email was scanned for viruses by > the Government Secure Intranet (GSi) virus scanning service > supplied exclusively by Cable & Wireless in partnership with > MessageLabs. > In case of problems, please call your organisational IT Helpdesk. > The MessageLabs Anti Virus Service is the first managed > service to achieve the CSIA Claims Tested Mark (CCTM > Certificate Number 2006/04/0007), the UK Government quality > mark initiative for information security products and > services. 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