Hi Gav, I've had this debate with myself before ... am I really an atheist or an agnostic ? Being dogmatic about the existence of god is no less dogmatic than the absence.
(I believe you end up in a debate about the precise kind of god being talked about and as you say, need to be very careful not to generalise about religions and beliefs.) I've incurred DMB's wrath before suggesting that science has its beliefs too, and knocking Dawkins many times previously for his pointless ancient juvenile arguments, though I accept he (and Hitchens) do a lot to raise the subject to debate. But yes, if pushed, I do actually end up saying I am an atheist. Agnostic sounds too "care-less" on the matter, which I am not. What I'm saying when I say that is "No, I don't believe there is a god", which is not at all the same as saying "I know there isn't a god". I'm coming off the fence, but recognizing that all belief is (should be) contingent. Of course even when I say that, I'm talking about a sentient, omnipotent, causal being type of god - there are plenty of god-like metaphors and myths I'd be happy to entertain - spiritual bases of belief. So rather than say "yes and no", or "mu", I say "no, but". Dogma is the problem, and the quality of reason, not gods per se. Atheist is just a word. It tells you which side of a fence I'm on, but where I am in the field on either side, nor that I don't believe in the fence in the first place. I'll leave you and DMB to the Campbell / Star-Wars discussion, they just don't ring my bell. But I have no likelihood of taking myths and gods literally - all is metaphor. Ian On 6/12/07, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > am i to take it there are people on this list that > would label themselves 'theist' or 'atheist'? > these are the same position: belief over knowledge. > > to blanket ridicule all religion! talk about hubris! > literally. > > the atheist stares into the abyss and says, bravely, > "i don't need a crutch, i can face the void without > any fantastical 'god' to comfort me". the atheists > crutch is his ego, and he will recant on his death > bed. > > the theist admits his fear and tries to > buy/borrow/steal what cannot be purchased/lent/stolen. > this is usually taken as 'faith'. > > the athiest is arrogantly ignorant > the theist is also arrogantly ignorant. > > arguing about the same thing...it's a classic! > > all religions are essentially true, *mythologically* > true. unfortunately most priests as well as academics > are blind to myth. > > the current wave of 'god dissing' is adolescent and > puerile and damaging. ego-boosts for impotent > middle-aged men. > > religion is full of wisdom and beauty. to sever our > connections with it is to follow the lead of the ever > so successful soviet union. > > to sever our connection with religion is to sever our > connection with the past, is to ignore the mythic, is > to wander self-consciously, fearfully through life's > dramas blind to the meanings/messages inherent in > them. > > it is reconnection that is needed, not more > alienation! the century of self: the ego is boss. the > ego is alone! > > science has become our religion but it is a poor > science. it is a science manipulated and diminished by > the Giant for its own logical ends. it is an > irreligious religion: schizophrenic. > > there is no fundamental quarrel between science and > (mythic) religion. they are complementary modes of > knowledge. reflective and existential respectively > > to explore this conjunction, through art, is to > understand Pirsig most fully i believe. > > our religions need to be revivified, unified. science > needs to become self-aware. the mythos will provide > the creations that will accomplish this. > > the closest i can think of so far is (the original > trilogy of) star wars, which was based on the work of > joseph campbell. the jedi, the force, superior science > and technology...the rational and irrational are > mutually fecundating. > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________________________ > > How would you spend $50,000 to create a more sustainable environment in > Australia? Go to Yahoo!7 Answers and share your idea. > http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/aunz/lifestyle/answers/y7ans-babp_reg.html > > > > moq_discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > moq_discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
