Ian, Marsha, David, and gav,
I'm noticing a connection here that with a little
bit here and this over here, yes, and put it together
and a perspective might be lining up.
David said this, "Therefore one can have a social
'thought', but unless it is manipulated in some way
then it is only social. Once this 'thought' is
manipulated using the rules of grammar, logic or
mathematics then one is being intellectual."
gav said, "the intellectual level is about ideas.
ideas and the relationships between ideas, which are a
higher level of ideas... and so on... until an
intellectual/intuitive apprehension of the "whole* is
gained
Marsha said, "As a result, their best
mathematicians were unable to use the principles of
geometry for anything unrelated to real world
problems--they did not take their system of
mathematics and turn it into an abstract system of
logic. They were also not inclined to put math into
their philosophy. The Greeks were different; they
embraced the abstract and the philosophical, and
brought mathematics to its highest point in ancient
times..."
Marsha, you also pointed out Archemedes principle
of buoyancy and how this principle could be used to
make a boat somewhere else, even out of sight of a
boat already made.
It is this manipulation of symbols were we can
pick them up, that is pick these ideas up and rove,
wander, move-about with these ideas and use them in
another location out of sight of where the idea comes
from. The abstract system of logic, math, and grammer
uses an idea/thought in further manipulation, as gav
says, "...ideas, ideas, and relationships between
ideas..." Using this abstraction system we can make
new thoughts, principles, and understandings. It is
somewhat as you pointed out Marsha, a impractical
system, but not necessarily impracticality proves that
we're using this intellectual abstract system. As
Pirsig said, he's maintaining a motorcycle. This is a
practical machine that can help transport you from
point A to point B to visit, vacation, go to work,
etc... It is walking on wheels.
This abstract system of logic math, and grammer
that lifts an idea into abstraction further
abstraction and further abstraction, that builds
relationships between other abstract thoughts. As
Archemedes made a 'short-cut' principle that helps
somebody understand how to make a better boat without
having to go through all the old mistrials, hang-ups,
and such. These short-cut, abstract systems quicken
our experience of how to make a boat. Using these
short-cut, abstract systems upon the intellectual
level we don't have to build the computer over again
and come up with all the principles in how this
computer might work, etc... These abstract systems
can jump-start a teenager to by-pass what took
generations to do, and this teenager can build a
computer. Not necessary from scratch, that's the
whole point, the teenager uses an abstract system that
catapults the youth to making a computer without
starting from scratch.
I don't find this abstract system to be strictly
impractical as the outcomes can circulate from the
intellectual level back into the social level and
technology - things can be made. Societies made
better, etc... Abstract systems are thought
experiments that physicists perform. These thought
experiments move around the mind and on paper and what
works and doesn't work can be abstracted without
having to go into the $ of making this experiment and
that experiment to find out what will lead the
experiment upon the best path. Still the experiment
will be performed and may not work well, and new
avenues of abstract thought are opened to discover
what might have went off-track, but at least one
doesn't have to experiment and thus, experience over
and over again to see what is practical, meaning what
will work on all levels in a more harmonious and
better way.
thanks.
woods,
SA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today!
http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
moq_discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
