-----Platt Holden, Monday, July 16, 2007 09:54-----
All points well-taken.  To me the "diversity umbrella" in which all 
approaches are considered equally valid is a cop-out and leaves the 
message with young brains full of mush that "anything goes." (Have you 
witnessed the overtly sexual teenage dances?) If the MOQ were adopted as 
the umbrella, then a value-centered curriculum might evolve, for the 
betterment of society. But what are the chances? Practically nil as far as 
I can tell. Diversity rules the day.  
------

Having worked at a boarding high school, I have certainly witnessed those
dances. In fact, I have chaperoned those teenage dances and been an adult
enforcer of appropriate boundaries between hormone-charged teenagers eager
to express biological quality ...

I share your concern with an "anything goes" mentality and certainly do not
support cultural relativism. That said, I endorse diversity. In the words of
Blaise Pascal, "Plurality which is not reduced to unity is confusion; unity
which does not depend on plurality is tyranny." In endorsing the teaching a
plurality metaphysical approaches, I do not intend to perpetuate the fatal
flaw of postmodern relativism--that nothing is better than anything else.
Rather, I intend to honor the MoQ's assertion that there is no single True
intellectual construction of the world. There are multiple perspectives,
each providing a partial truth, and some are more comprehensive, consistent,
and consilient than others. In the end, what students need is not a
pre-given worldview handed down by authority from their teachers, but the
critical teaching skills honed by engaging with, articulating, analyzing,
attacking, defending, and comparing different worldviews.

-----Platt Holden, Monday, July 16, 2007 09:54-----
I know of nothing inherent in marriage benefits that would encourage gay 
partnership into "long-term committed relationships." I would wager the 
"divorce rate" among married gay couples would at least equal those of 
heterosexual couples. But, neither of us is going to argue the other out 
of his position on this issue. The voters will decide.     
-----

I fear you are correct that we're not going to budge one another from our
respective opinions on the matter of recognizing same-sex unions. While I
remain open to the possibility of being shown that such a move should be
opposed, I have heard no compelling argument articulating the grounds for
such opposition and maintain a 99% confidence factor that recognizing same
sex unions is not only the morally correct choice in terms of the
universalization of rights, it's also the long-term socially beneficial
choice.

I know you disagree on that, but I still don't understand why. First, I
haven't heard the reasons why you think that recognizing same-sex unions
leads so social ills. You see it as somehow weakening societal codes but I
don't see the connection between allowing gay marriage & any increase in
uncivilized or anti-social behavior. What, specifically do you see
happening, and how? What's gone wrong in Vermont in the last seven years
since they've recognized civil unions between homosexual couples?

Second, I find reasonable the logic laid out in the article I cited in my
last post which argues that allowing gay marriage actually strengthens
marriage as an institution.
<http://www.indegayforum.org/news/show/26888.html>. Whether or not it would
actually increase long-term committed relationships between gays is an open
question, as I have no evidence to point to one way or the other. Prima
facia, though, I think that both the formal community recognition and the
contractual nature of marriage would tend to incentivize such, since that's
a prime social function of marriages.

I agree that divorce may end up plaguing gay marriages as much as it does
heterosexual marriages. However, that doesn't seem to me to be an argument
against gay marriage. 

-----Platt Holden, Monday, July 16, 2007 09:54-----
The intention or motivation behind government intervention doesn't change
the nature of government which is legalized force. Behind all government
regulations, for good or ill, is the barrel of a gun wielded by the police 
or military. That's what I meant by any kind of government intervention 
being "heavy handed." 
-----

I think you take Pirsig too literally.

In Chapter 24 of *Lila*, he does indeed say, "All the laws of history, all
the arguments, all the Constitutions and the Bills of Rights and
Declarations of Independence are nothing more than instructions to the
military and police." Personally, I take issue with the "nothing more than"
clause, as I think there is an enormous difference to liberty in the content
of laws and the intermediary steps of enforcement. His essential point is
the next sentence: "If the military and police can't or don't follow these
instructions properly they might as well have never been written." That's
certainly true. If compliance doesn't come from the mere statement of the
law, then it must come to threat of or actual use of violence against
individuals breaking the law. However, government intervention doesn't
*start* there--it *ends* there, and only when the law has been broken and
the perpetrator refuses to comply peaceably. To equate all government
intervention with police action is to mistake the DMV for the SWAT team, to
equate a government bureaucrat carrying out a statutory regulation with a
machine-gun wielding soldier-cop in a flak jacket carrying out a warrant. As
my examples bear out, there's big difference between levels of government
regulation, between criminalizing the consumption of alcohol and
criminalizing acts of negligence under the influence of alcohol, between
micromanaging manufacturing standards and setting pervasive economic
incentives & letting individuals & businesses take care of the rest. I think
that just as some government intervention unwarranted and some not, some
government intervention is heavy-handed, and some is not.

-----Platt Holden, Monday, July 16, 2007 09:54-----
Thanks. I've reviewed the article and again question its assumption about 
man-made global warming. Otherwise I noted at the conclusion that any 
combination of carrots and sticks is ultimately backed by the "heavy hand 
of government" -- a necessary stick to be sure. 
-----

Regardless of the reality of anthropogenic global warming and its likely
deleterious consequences I hope you agree that the economics of
externalities, the applicability of the cybernetic logic of the Tragedy of
the Commons, and the game-theoretic mathematics of Prisoner's Dilemma still
hold true. In the situations in which these constructs apply, individual
short-term self-interest leads to long-term ruin. It requires external (most
likely government) regulation to avoids the Tragedy of the Commons because a
free market cannot incentivize the nondestructive individual behavior.

On this issue, I'm curious what would constitute evidence to persuade you of
the reality and danger of global warming. From your commitment to the MoQ
and your statements allying it with science, I would have assumed that you
were committed to scientific standards of evidence, the overwhelming
preponderance of which supports the view that anthropogenic global warming
threatens us with enormous loss of property, livelihood, and human life, as
summarized by the IPCC and reported in the links I provided in my July 9th
post. What makes you question these multiple, peer-reviewed, scientific
papers? Do you see compelling evidence to the contrary?

-----Platt Holden, Monday, July 16, 2007 09:54-----
As an aside, some evolutionary biologists are claiming that our moral 
sense (what is good) is not intellectual but innate. What do you think? 
(Maybe another thread.)
-----

An interesting question for future exploration. I assume you're talking
about Steven Pinker & E.O. Wilson, among others? I haven't read enough of
their work to comment, but from what I have read, I think at least some of
our moral sense is pre-programmed by evolution, whether at the biological or
sociocultural level. I highly recommend Robert Axelrod's *The Evolution of
Cooperation* and Robert Wright's *Nonzero* for compelling, game-theoretic,
evolutionary explanations of how we came to cooperate and develop our sense
of the good over time out of our own self-interested interactions with
others.

moq_discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

Reply via email to