I agree with you James and John.
As I see it our only hope is for some, as yet unimaginable, evolutionary
leap of collective consciousness, and it will have to operate across the
global ecology of material and symbolic social relations.
Ruth
On 06/09/15 21:12, James Morris wrote:
We are not learning because we all have different perspectives and
levels of understanding and we haven't evolved enough to deal with
that. Look at where were we 2000 years ago. The recent evolution of
our technology gives us the wrong impression. I wouldn't be at all
surprised if we've got another two thousand years before we've made a
dent in these problems. The way we're manipulated to see things from
last year as out of date gives us the wrong impression. That's what I
think.
On 06/09/15 20:26, Ana Valdés wrote:
Alan i full agree with you. My point was it seems every generation
promises "never more" when a catastrophe occurs. After the Holocaust
with victims ranging from Jews to Gypsies to homosexuals to mental
ill to Jehovah witness and many other the nations said "no more".
The victorious Red Army raped German women in tens of thousands,
Stalin moved Ucranians and Tchechen farmers to far parts of Russia
and millions died of hunger.
Years later we had the holocaust of Vienam and Cambodia with their
killing fields and the orange agent and the napalm bombing.
In the seventies we had our own Holocaust here, around 40000
dissapeared killed by horrendous ways, buried alive in concrete,
drowned in Rio de la Plata, their babies stolen and given as gifts to
children less military couples.
We had one million killed in Rwanda with ppl in the rest of the world
seeing as bystanders.
We said never more atomic bombs after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and now
every country want their own arsenal.
We had the sieges of Sarajevo and the massacre of Sebrenica 5000 ppl
killed in two days. We have Gaza now we have ISIS.
Why are we not learning from history we only repeat the horror with
more sophisticated weapons.
Ana
Skickat från min iPhone
6 sep 2015 kl. 14:29 skrev Alan Sondheim <[email protected]>:
I agree with you of course! I also think that lessons learned aren't
really applied - the US used Agent Orange, ISIS brings back mustard
gas, Assad uses god knows what, and we discuss these things... I try
to read ethology as much as possible, there are all sorts of lessons
to be learned of course from animals, plants, but how can we apply
them when 99 percent of the world believes that humans have some
sort of God-given right to owning the planet?
- alan
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
Hi Alan,
I hear you.
I agree with all you say.
but I was not arguing against the usefulness, inspirational power
or validity of science (I hope and think you know this)
just that science (so far as I know) has not yet provided us with
knowledge (that we can apply with any consistency) about how to
stop (ourselves or others) behaving (individually or collectively)
like arseholes, nor how to coordinate collectively for the highest
interest of all living beings.
So the chart is more a celebration of the many (human and
non-human) ways there are of knowing, rather than a bash at science
(with the help of which we know A LOT!).
On 06/09/15 18:13, Alan Sondheim wrote:
it's also science that deals with the horror, albeit differently -
the studies done of desertification for example in the mid-east.
science knows more than scientifically in the same way that art
knows more than artistically, etc. - for me, the reason I'm
interested in cosmology and particle physics, it gives me an idea
where we've come from, what's out there, what we're made of, etc.
and it extends my knowledge beyond what's given to us as human
perception.
certainly it knows (not science, which knows nothing, but
scientists) are motivated by the vastness of the world...
and science as much as any other field deals with what horrifies
and debilitates, think of ebola for example...
Alan (who secretly likes situationism, but not its reification)
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
I won't pick an argument with you about Situationism: )
but i must defend the symbolic precision of the pie chart!
not because science isn't a good way of knowing things
but because science only knows how to know things scientifically.
and it cannot (because of its nature) know the vastness and
multi-faceted worlds of reality to which it cannot even begin to
apply its knowledge acquisition tools.
For this reason I also think it is a particularly good joke!
I paired it with the Situationism quote because it encourages an
attitude of curiosity towards things that otherwise horrify and
terrify... (and therefore debilitate)
On 06/09/15 15:36, Alan Sondheim wrote:
Yes, but I'd reverse the chart labels!
- Alan (always suspicious of situationism) (not looking for
another argument) (just got up)
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
Above: (left) /Scientific Diagramme/ (right) /Drawing of a
quote from The Joy of Revolution by Ken Knabb//
/
Please accept my contribution to the conversation (above).
Very appreciative of the efforts by all here to make sense and
meaning. Thank you.
Ruth
On 06/09/15 07:29, Antye Greie-Ripatti wrote:
thanks for sharing your thoughts? on all ends, i just want to
say, it means something
in regards to syria, i read this this morning and it helped a
bit to understand (cause also Putin is playing)
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/5/9265621/syrian-refugee-charts
like all conflicts these days they have so many layers and the
complexity and depth,
like Ukraine for instance, which is ongoing and severe too
people also leaving the country constantly?
etc
blaming could be also called history writing/ rewriting
understanding
and its is super important and all crisis are US crises too,
cause they been playing hard!
but solutions --->
The enormous profits which Halliburton and Cheney won should
be taxed and paid to the refugees they created with the
obscene Iraq war, a war based on lies and at flagrant crime
against international law and common sense.
true!
keep spreading
i just re-read the entire "vietnam war' wikipedia entry
yesterday cause suddenly i couldnt remember WHY there was a war
i wanted to explain my daughter
?
insane
sorry, fragmented comments
On Sep 5, 2015, at 12:59 AM, Ana Vald?s <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Alan you have been in the Middle East as I has been.
Israel receives per year billions of American support both
military and economic. Without the American support Israel
could not manage the fences in the West Bank and in Gaza.
They cost millions to keep. The new fence, separating the
town of Bethlem in two, is cutting the Catholic monastery of
Cremisan, which vineyards has been the only working place for
hundreds of Palestinian families, in two. The Palestinian are
not going any longer to access the vineyards.
The US was the heir of the colonial European and was the
kingmaker of the region for years. The Marines derrocated the
Iranian first minister In 1954 because he wanted to
nationalise the oil and manage the wells without the American
oil companies. It's not me "blaming the US" without
historical facts. The same facts Eisenhower stated when he
said "we are the hostages of the military industrial
establishment".
My point is: who toppled Saddam and Ghadaffi and who has been
supporting Assad all these years? The US economical and
geopolitical strategies has created the refugees which are
fleeing today the region and they are seen by politicians,
weapon dealers, war mongers and bankers as "collateral damage".
That's my point why we are not seen in these days the same
rallies to support the refugees we are seen in Europe?
You say "US is giving more than many other countries". But
that's the most bizarre paradox: The US is taking with a hand
and giving with the other hand.
The enormous profits which Halliburton and Cheney won should
be taxed and paid to the refugees they created with the
obscene Iraq war, a war based on lies and at flagrant crime
against international law and common sense.
Ana
Skickat fr?n min iPhone
4 sep 2015 kl. 18:17 skrev Alan Sondheim <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>:
But the refugees ARE a European problem, and France was in
the mid-east as well, England had its empire, Belgium its
Leopold. You keep going after blame after blame after blame.
Why not ask why the US is doing little? Apparently it's
giving a lot more aid than other countries (think that was
in the Guardian, I might be able to track the source down)
combined. And Europe would not be taking refugees in, were
they not coming across "its" borders. That's not the case
here; what is the case is the horrific xenophobia which is
placing the U.S. under lockdown. I see lots of calls for
humanitarian support and aid, very little for bringing
refugees over - I'm also not sure how that would be done,
where they would come from - and this in the case of brutal
opposition to the 11 million (apparently) undocumented
workers/migrants here from central and south America - which
is obviously far more than the total migrants to date in
Europe. I'd like to see ALL refugees everywhere legalized
; I can't do anything re: Europe, but we voice our opposition here to
the Republican party and its proto- fascistic take on the world.
That's pretty much all I can say about it.
- Alan
On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Ana Vald?s wrote:
We see in the whole European world ppl gathering in
supporting the refugees
biking to Calais from London with tents food and medicines
in Stockholm
where I lived for almost my whole adult life thousands of
families are
offering to open their houses to refugees.
And I am talking about a country with a xenophobe party
with almost one
million voters.
Alan and the Americans in this list what are the US doing?
I don't mean the
government but the ppl where are the rallies to help the
refugees from the
Middle East, a region in turmoil since the wars started by
the US and their
geopolitical strategies?
The refugees can't be an European problem.
Ana
El sep 4, 2015 2:39 PM, "Alan Sondheim" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> escribi?:
Germany is set to take in 800,000 refugees by the end
of the
year.
America, a country that won two World Wars, went to the
moon,
and did "the other things," has taken in, well, far fewer.
Quoth the Guardian:
The US has admitted approximately 1,500 Syrian
refugees
since the beginning of the civil war there in 2011, mostly
within the last fiscal year. Since April, the number of
admitted
refugees has more than doubled from an estimate of 700.
...
Anna Greene, IRCs director of policy & advocacy for US
programs, said the 1,500 people the US has admitted
thus far
doesnt even begin to scratch the surface of what is
needed and
what could really make a difference.
Oxfam wants the US to up that number to 70,000 by the
end of
2016.
Correction: This post and its headline originally said
that
Germany planned to take in 800,000 Syrian refugees by
the end of
the year. That is incorrect. It is 800,000 refugees total.
- Alan
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