We are not learning because we all have different perspectives and
levels of understanding and we haven't evolved enough to deal with that.
Look at where were we 2000 years ago. The recent evolution of our
technology gives us the wrong impression. I wouldn't be at all surprised
if we've got another two thousand years before we've made a dent in
these problems. The way we're manipulated to see things from last year
as out of date gives us the wrong impression. That's what I think.
On 06/09/15 20:26, Ana Valdés wrote:
Alan i full agree with you. My point was it seems every generation promises "never more"
when a catastrophe occurs. After the Holocaust with victims ranging from Jews to Gypsies to
homosexuals to mental ill to Jehovah witness and many other the nations said "no more".
The victorious Red Army raped German women in tens of thousands, Stalin moved
Ucranians and Tchechen farmers to far parts of Russia and millions died of
hunger.
Years later we had the holocaust of Vienam and Cambodia with their killing
fields and the orange agent and the napalm bombing.
In the seventies we had our own Holocaust here, around 40000 dissapeared killed
by horrendous ways, buried alive in concrete, drowned in Rio de la Plata, their
babies stolen and given as gifts to children less military couples.
We had one million killed in Rwanda with ppl in the rest of the world seeing as
bystanders.
We said never more atomic bombs after Hiroshima and Nagasaki and now every
country want their own arsenal.
We had the sieges of Sarajevo and the massacre of Sebrenica 5000 ppl killed in
two days. We have Gaza now we have ISIS.
Why are we not learning from history we only repeat the horror with more
sophisticated weapons.
Ana
Skickat från min iPhone
6 sep 2015 kl. 14:29 skrev Alan Sondheim <[email protected]>:
I agree with you of course! I also think that lessons learned aren't really
applied - the US used Agent Orange, ISIS brings back mustard gas, Assad uses
god knows what, and we discuss these things... I try to read ethology as much
as possible, there are all sorts of lessons to be learned of course from
animals, plants, but how can we apply them when 99 percent of the world
believes that humans have some sort of God-given right to owning the planet?
- alan
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
Hi Alan,
I hear you.
I agree with all you say.
but I was not arguing against the usefulness, inspirational power or validity
of science (I hope and think you know this)
just that science (so far as I know) has not yet provided us with knowledge
(that we can apply with any consistency) about how to stop (ourselves or
others) behaving (individually or collectively) like arseholes, nor how to
coordinate collectively for the highest interest of all living beings.
So the chart is more a celebration of the many (human and non-human) ways there
are of knowing, rather than a bash at science (with the help of which we know A
LOT!).
On 06/09/15 18:13, Alan Sondheim wrote:
it's also science that deals with the horror, albeit differently - the studies
done of desertification for example in the mid-east.
science knows more than scientifically in the same way that art knows more than
artistically, etc. - for me, the reason I'm interested in cosmology and
particle physics, it gives me an idea where we've come from, what's out there,
what we're made of, etc. and it extends my knowledge beyond what's given to us
as human perception.
certainly it knows (not science, which knows nothing, but scientists) are
motivated by the vastness of the world...
and science as much as any other field deals with what horrifies and
debilitates, think of ebola for example...
Alan (who secretly likes situationism, but not its reification)
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
I won't pick an argument with you about Situationism: )
but i must defend the symbolic precision of the pie chart!
not because science isn't a good way of knowing things
but because science only knows how to know things scientifically.
and it cannot (because of its nature) know the vastness and multi-faceted
worlds of reality to which it cannot even begin to apply its knowledge
acquisition tools.
For this reason I also think it is a particularly good joke!
I paired it with the Situationism quote because it encourages an attitude of
curiosity towards things that otherwise horrify and terrify... (and therefore
debilitate)
On 06/09/15 15:36, Alan Sondheim wrote:
Yes, but I'd reverse the chart labels!
- Alan (always suspicious of situationism) (not looking for another argument)
(just got up)
On Sun, 6 Sep 2015, ruth catlow wrote:
Above: (left) /Scientific Diagramme/ (right) /Drawing of a quote from The Joy
of Revolution by Ken Knabb//
/
Please accept my contribution to the conversation (above).
Very appreciative of the efforts by all here to make sense and meaning. Thank
you.
Ruth
On 06/09/15 07:29, Antye Greie-Ripatti wrote:
thanks for sharing your thoughts? on all ends, i just want to say, it means
something
in regards to syria, i read this this morning and it helped a bit to understand
(cause also Putin is playing)
http://www.vox.com/2015/9/5/9265621/syrian-refugee-charts
like all conflicts these days they have so many layers and the complexity and
depth,
like Ukraine for instance, which is ongoing and severe too
people also leaving the country constantly?
etc
blaming could be also called history writing/ rewriting understanding
and its is super important and all crisis are US crises too, cause they been
playing hard!
but solutions --->
The enormous profits which Halliburton and Cheney won should be taxed and paid
to the refugees they created with the obscene Iraq war, a war based on lies and
at flagrant crime against international law and common sense.
true!
keep spreading
i just re-read the entire "vietnam war' wikipedia entry yesterday cause
suddenly i couldnt remember WHY there was a war
i wanted to explain my daughter
?
insane
sorry, fragmented comments
On Sep 5, 2015, at 12:59 AM, Ana Vald?s <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
Dear Alan you have been in the Middle East as I has been. Israel receives per
year billions of American support both military and economic. Without the
American support Israel could not manage the fences in the West Bank and in
Gaza.
They cost millions to keep. The new fence, separating the town of Bethlem in
two, is cutting the Catholic monastery of Cremisan, which vineyards has been
the only working place for hundreds of Palestinian families, in two. The
Palestinian are not going any longer to access the vineyards.
The US was the heir of the colonial European and was the kingmaker of the region for years. The
Marines derrocated the Iranian first minister In 1954 because he wanted to nationalise the oil and
manage the wells without the American oil companies. It's not me "blaming the US" without
historical facts. The same facts Eisenhower stated when he said "we are the hostages of the
military industrial establishment".
My point is: who toppled Saddam and Ghadaffi and who has been supporting Assad all these
years? The US economical and geopolitical strategies has created the refugees which are
fleeing today the region and they are seen by politicians, weapon dealers, war mongers
and bankers as "collateral damage".
That's my point why we are not seen in these days the same rallies to support
the refugees we are seen in Europe?
You say "US is giving more than many other countries". But that's the most
bizarre paradox: The US is taking with a hand and giving with the other hand.
The enormous profits which Halliburton and Cheney won should be taxed and paid
to the refugees they created with the obscene Iraq war, a war based on lies and
at flagrant crime against international law and common sense.
Ana
Skickat fr?n min iPhone
4 sep 2015 kl. 18:17 skrev Alan Sondheim <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>>:
But the refugees ARE a European problem, and France was in the mid-east as well, England
had its empire, Belgium its Leopold. You keep going after blame after blame after blame.
Why not ask why the US is doing little? Apparently it's giving a lot more aid than other
countries (think that was in the Guardian, I might be able to track the source down)
combined. And Europe would not be taking refugees in, were they not coming across
"its" borders. That's not the case here; what is the case is the horrific
xenophobia which is placing the U.S. under lockdown. I see lots of calls for humanitarian
support and aid, very little for bringing refugees over - I'm also not sure how that
would be done, where they would come from - and this in the case of brutal opposition to
the 11 million (apparently) undocumented workers/migrants here from central and south
America - which is obviously far more than the total migrants to date in Europe. I'd like
to see ALL refugees everywhere legalized
; I can't do anything re: Europe, but we voice our opposition here to the
Republican party and its proto- fascistic take on the world. That's pretty much
all I can say about it.
- Alan
On Fri, 4 Sep 2015, Ana Vald?s wrote:
We see in the whole European world ppl gathering in supporting the refugees
biking to Calais from London with tents food and medicines in Stockholm
where I lived for almost my whole adult life thousands of families are
offering to open their houses to refugees.
And I am talking about a country with a xenophobe party with almost one
million voters.
Alan and the Americans in this list what are the US doing? I don't mean the
government but the ppl where are the rallies to help the refugees from the
Middle East, a region in turmoil since the wars started by the US and their
geopolitical strategies?
The refugees can't be an European problem.
Ana
El sep 4, 2015 2:39 PM, "Alan Sondheim" <[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>> escribi?:
Germany is set to take in 800,000 refugees by the end of the
year.
America, a country that won two World Wars, went to the moon,
and did "the other things," has taken in, well, far fewer.
Quoth the Guardian:
The US has admitted approximately 1,500 Syrian refugees
since the beginning of the civil war there in 2011, mostly
within the last fiscal year. Since April, the number of admitted
refugees has more than doubled from an estimate of 700.
...
Anna Greene, IRCs director of policy & advocacy for US
programs, said the 1,500 people the US has admitted thus far
doesnt even begin to scratch the surface of what is needed and
what could really make a difference.
Oxfam wants the US to up that number to 70,000 by the end of
2016.
Correction: This post and its headline originally said that
Germany planned to take in 800,000 Syrian refugees by the end of
the year. That is incorrect. It is 800,000 refugees total.
- Alan
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