On Saturday 17 October 2009, justin joseph wrote: > On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:09 PM, jtd <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Thursday 15 October 2009, Amol Hatwar wrote: > >> ** My Comments Inline ** > >> > >> >> The aim of trade left unions are improve the living conditions of > >> >> the > >> >> workers and getting their needs met. > >> > > >> > Dont make me laugh. Personal experience of living thru the violence > >> > and misery > >> > caused by unionism because they have a complete lack of > >> > understanding (or > >> > atleast their actions show such a lack) of how economics works, > >> > showed me > >> > otherwise. To give you a few examples L & T, the mill strikes, small > >> > industry > >> > unrest in ghatkopar and vikhroli, National Rayon Corp. Ambivli, Amar > >> > Dye > >> > Chem, Century Rayon Kalyan, Several factories in Ambad Nasik, Bush > >> > and > >> > Murphy India, Mukand Iron and steel, Kamani Engineering, Siemens > >> > Kalwa, > >> > Premier automobiles, GKW Bhandup, Godrej etc. > >> > >> Unions are good, management needs to be kept in check every once in a > >> while. But the way thing perpetrated in all the above examples were > >> bad. As they say, too much of anything is bad. > > > > Not at all. Unions arise not where there is injustice (with one ironical > > exception that i know of), but where there is a fast buck to be made. > > Thus if an industry is doing "well", the union (worker) will demand a cut > > of the > > There are lot of industries(IT for one) that are doing well and where > there are no Unions.
You may check out last years (or was it year before last) attempt by MNS to unionise an already well compensated workforce. Strange that you never hear of union or benefits for the temps manning the garbage dumps and cleaning the sewers, or the 100s who converge 8AM at nakas as masons, brick layers, painters, hamals. Do step out of the ivory tower now and then. > You seems to think of workers as highway robbers who are waiting in the > dark to rob the profit making industrialist, there are voices in very > employer organization > including NASSCOMM that spread this myth continuously(Union == > Industry collapse). I think exactly that of external Union managements. The examples i gave were of the most highly paid employees in the country. There were a few internal unions that were good AND a few managements that were terrible. However without exception the unions failed to reform managements that were bad, and only succeeded in shutting down all unionised companies or getting kicked out. The union owners of course walked away into the sunset. The workers were left starving. Even when they were owner managers, with hughe write offs on loans etc. the unionised workers failed to keep afloat going concerns. > A business exists for the sole purpose of profits. It is only natural > that to counterbalance > one sided interests the employees collectivize, there is nothing > unnatural in it. Collectivise, collect your capital and start your own, which was ofcourse not possible in the past, but is exactly how it happens now. > Some > places for obvious reasons the industrialist will oppose this move > tooth and nail, like > we recently saw in the jet pilots strike where the management > illegally terminated > pilots who had merely exercised their constitutional rights. Because the > pilots were united they stood their ground and the management had to take > roll back their illegal decision, which would not have happened otherwise. > Every tom, dick > and harry here knows that the present recession has caused a situation > where to maintain > their rate of profitability a lot of industries are resorting to > unconstitutional measures which > are outright illegal. One which is very often seen is to forcefully > ask the employee to resign, > we see this happening with regularity in the IT industry. There is no > unity in the employees > in these sectors and hence no counter balance and hence these enforced > resignation > is continuing, the Industry calls this by the fancy name "involuntary > attrition" and because > of confusion created by people like you, the Industry captains have > the audacity like for > example NASSCOMM chief saying in an event organized by BJP IT cell in > bangalore that > the IT industry will continue to be a "Net hirer" meaning simply that > they will continue > to fire whom they want and intake whom they want at prices they seem > fit, just like in > the old day slave markets. > So by your logic it is perfectly okay for an employee to leave but not at all ok for one to be removed. And it is perfectly alright for one person to demand more, but not at all for another. And pray what is the limit we set? The minimum wages act and an opposite the maximum wages act? Go to bhyander in the stainless steel utensil ghettos. Check out the value chain. Hopefully you will understand how different the reality is. Or the Milk tabelas, formerly located in Jogeshwari- Goregaon. If the market provides the same skill at a lower price why the hell will you hire at higher price?. And being hired last year does not make your job your birthright over the guy who grads this year you see. In exactly the same way that IBM /RH/ M$/ Cisco whoever decides to hire / contract Indian IT personnel. Being employed in the USA at 10 times the Indian wage does not make it the US employees birth right. Your prescription is exactly the type of protectionism that got us into a mess. Protecting jobs, requires protecting industries (and the industrialist you love to berate). Very nice for a few years. but it always comes back to bite, with workers getting bitten the worst. > Like Obama said, we need to see employees who are fired not as mere > statistics but > as people, who have families dependent on them. In the IT industry > around 10% of > employees have been removed, forced to resign(illegal). The saying goes "put your money where your mouth is". Start an enterprise and make policies that you espouse. Everyone will follow. There is at least one Company that is employee owned and managed Carl Zeiss Jena. But one company does not a summer make. > But off course if and when there will be voices raised against these > and many other practises > people like you Stop getting personal. It makes people think you have no logical args left. > will accuse employees as robbers after a fast buck. > Latest examples like the > Jet pilots strike clearly show that this is not the case, their action > was a reaction to illegal > management steps. > > Anyways, I am an employee and don't have all the time in the world to > continuously argue. > I have work to do, in between which it is a struggle to visit colleges > and talk to people and > spread the free software word. In the mean time people who have hired > labour and have > lot of free time can go on endlessly accusing workers on behalf of > their tribe interests through e-mails. > I like to see these anti worker mails in fosscomm, because thats the > beauty of the free software idea, > it breaks the system from inside(the future becomes suddenly "open") > if you understand what I mean. Precisely the reason why one should breakout as an entrepreneur. FLOSS provides a unique opportunity. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_union > > If you have facts and stats to claim what you are saying, edit > wikipedia about why you think > Unions arise. Read about the examples i gave. Or provide some good examples to bolster your argument. > Maybe someday I will read enough of Ayn Rand and become like her > pupils, but not one > of these days where it is clear to anyone who bothers to see what has > happened to the > economy because of unregulated(government control) over business > houses, maybe she May i suggest reading books on economics, marketing, hot money etc. facts as is presently known rather than crappy fiction. Much as we all love utopia, monetary equality is unlikely for the next couple of centuries. Particularly with human beings always wanting to be one up on someone else. -- Rgds JTD _______________________________________________ network mailing list [email protected] http://lists.fosscom.in/listinfo.cgi/network-fosscom.in
