>Heh, the important things to note in the message below are:
>a) Faust wins.. again.
I could only wish - although the prospect of suing Doug for his $0.37 sounds
rather appetizing.
ACTUALLY, here is what is on my mind most of all lately, and this
conversation keeps reminding me of it:
>So it becomes sue-your-pants-off when you have been notified of a violation
>and failed to correct it in 30 days.
[FAUST REPLIES]
Not just. My particular IP attorney assures me that "Downstream Liability"
is where "sue-your-pants-off" becomes a very real possibility in Open
Gaming.
This is the one significant risk that the license does not (cannot?) cover
effectively and still retain the PI concept. This risk is what I have heard
to referred to as the "downstream liability" risk of publishing previously
"opened" material. The situation could arise like this:
1. Party A writes an OGL document with a large part of it
PI (copyright work).
2. Party B mistakenly publishes the entire work as "open".
3. Party C sees Party B's work, and writes and PUBLISHES
a game based on the "mistakenly" open content.
4. Party A informs party C they cannot use the content,
but too late - Party C has already spent $50,000 printing
up their work. Way too late, because now they CAN'T publish
and the $50 grand is wasted - GONE.
This scenario leaves Party B clearly legally liable for Party C's $50 grand
- even though all they did was pass on work they believed to be open. It
might have been an honest mistake, or a late night printing blunder, but
they are still liable.
Now considering the obvious lack of understanding on MANY persons concerning
what PI is and how to use it, this situation is not only plausible, it is
LIKELY that just this will happen before too long. This risk is also the
crux of the reason why PI works to completely discourage ANY but
professional gaming companies from truly embracing the "semi-open" nature of
the OGL.
This is also EXACTLY the fundamental difference between "Free Software" and
"Open" Gaming. There IS NO "downstream liability" risk in Free Software
(yes, free as in beer), because ALL of an open software work is (by
definition) open - no PI.
THE CONCLUSION: What we have (in the OGL) is a license that fundamentally
only serves the needs of professional developers. It does not provide
anything (except more products to buy) for the hobbyist.
Not that that is a bad thing, but it certainly leaves something to be
desired for the 99.9% of the "Gaming Community" that the "Open Gaming
Foundation" is ostensibly supposed to represent.
So, an open (sic) question: Have we LOST SIGHT of the FAN community here,
or should we even be considering them?
IMO the whole crux of this discussion can be summed up in that question:
"Should the Open Gaming Foundation" concern itself with the
needs of the FAN community?"
Comments?
Faust
>From: "Grok" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Heh, the important things to note in the message below are:
>a) Faust wins.. again.
>b) Snow Apes apparently have a secret power of 'Initiate Litigation' that
>was missed in the Creature Collection..
>
>Clark, will the webpage have the correct powers for Snow Apes soon?
>
>::reseting the bear trap in the chimney::
>-R
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "LaPierre, Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2001 2:46 PM
>Subject: RE: [Ogf-l] I'm Game
>
>
> > "agreeing not to hold advice-givers liable" OK everyone this is _just
>an
> > example_ I don't think anyone on this list would do this but eventually
> > there will be other developers.
> >
> > 1) Doug wants to create a world using "Free20" and the OGL and "d20".
> > 2) He decides that the northern reaches of his world has "Snow Apes".
> > 3) Clark misses the email asking for permission.
> > 4) Doug complains he doesn't have an answer.
> > 5) Martin says "Clark is reasonable, go ahead and use it. He said on the
> > list that people can use the names as long as the description and stats
>are
> > kept the same."
> > 6) Clark missed the email because Faust was buying SSS and they were
> > celebrating.
> > 7) Faust sees his IP on a website with 50,000 hits a day.
> > 8) Faust is upset because with all the info already created by visitors
>and
> > added to the site, he has to scrap his plans to do "The ecology of the
>Snow
> > Ape".
> > 9) He goes after Doug.
> > 10) Doug says "I've only got $0.37, but you can have it."
> > 11) Doug's lawyer says "Martin duped my client!"
> > 12) Doug is found guilty anyway.
> > 13) Since Doug didn't have anything, Faust goes after Martin. Faust
>wasn't
>a
> > party to the "Free20" agreement.
> > 14) Martin is partially culpable.
> >
> > Now as to having a plain english version: we had that argument most of
>the
> > last two weeks, I don't want to open it again.
> > Bob
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Doug Meerschaert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> >
> > >2) Even with your proposed add-on _you still need to comply with the
>OGL_,
> > >just because you aren't doing it for profit doesn't mean you can't be
> > >involved in legal problems. With or without your add-on.
> >
> >
> > *OF COURSE* we need to use the OGL. But what Free20 would do is provide
>a
> > consistent entity--see the "Free20" message. That "agreeing to not hold
> > advice-givers liable" is important.
> >
> > I don't know how LEGAL it is, but it's just a draft.
> >
> > >No-one on this list is saying "don't do it". We are saying that unless
>you
> > >are 100% certain of your interpetation of the OGL then you need to get
> > >competent legal advice. The people on this list can't risk giving legal
> > >advice. And none of us want to see you lose everything.
> >
> >
> > Bob, even Ryan needed legal advice on the OGL. And, even *with*
>lawyers,
> > people have messed up.
> >
> > What if, somehow, we *could* give advice on d20 without always saying
>"I'm
> > not a lawyer." What if there *was* a plain english document that anyone
>who
> > can read the SRD could read, follow, and not have to worry about getting
> > sued? Free legal advice doesn't make any sense between one business and
> > another--but it makes PLENTY of sense for fans and individuals who don't
> > stand to profit from the OGL but still want to contribute.
> >
> >
> > DM
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ogf-l mailing list
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ogf-l
> >
>
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