Hi, Ross. Me just getting back from travels, a bit behind. So...
but isn't it the case that the manifestations are different? That's the one thing we know, because they have different data (publisher, date, pagination, etc.). So unfortunately I do think that we are having to say that these are (Probably?) the same work/expression. BTW, I saw some great slides at SWIB (Semantic Web in Bibliotheken) in Cologne, and I will ask Alexander Haffner to put them up online, even though they are in German -- he has a great sequence where he shows how they create WEMI instances, then merge on W and E after the fact (and it includes the possible solution to my identifier problem). kc Quoting Ross Singer <[email protected]>: > Karen, I've been thinking about this some more (oddly, on another day > where I have to chaparone another of my son's field trips) and rather > than claiming that these two resources are describing same endeavour > (which, I fear, will get too abstract), it might make more sense to > say that both resources share the same manifestation (which, I think > is what we really mean, and care about, anyway). > > So, instead of endeavourRelation, what about: > > ov:commonManifestation > domain: rdfs:Resource > range: rdfs:Resource > > This property indicates that both resources are describing a > bibliographic endeavour that implicitly contains the same > manifestation. It is intended to be used to help relate FRBR entities > to bibliographic descriptions that are not modeled in FRBR (or two > bibliographic descriptions that are not modeled in FRBR) but contains > data that refers to the same manifestation. > > Obviously the description could use some editing, but does the general > idea make sense? > > Thanks! > -Ross. > > On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 5:54 AM, Karen Coyle <[email protected]> wrote: >> Ross, your associatedEntity description reads: >> >> "This property is used to relate two FRBR Endeavours/entities >> (http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#Endeavour) together even if the >> entire Work-Expression-Manifestation-Item hierarchy does not exist. >> For example, it could be used to relate a frbr:Work to a >> frbr:Manifestation without the need of a frbr:Expression to link them >> through. The property is symmetric (if a <_:work> ov:associatedEntity >> <_:item> then <_:item> ov:associatedEntity <_:work>. It is not >> transitive (items may be associated with the same work but not be in >> the same WEMI chain, for example)." >> >> Could this be generalized to work beyond FRBR? I'm thinking that it >> might be useful to link, for example, a MARC record to a FRBR work >> entity. Obviously it would be better to have a link that tells you HOW >> the two things are related/associated, but I can well imagine many >> situations where something more general will be useful. So maybe >> something like: >> >> "This property is used to relate two bibliographic entities (such as >> as subclasses of FRBR Endeavor; >> http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#Endeavour) together even if they are >> not entities of the same type. For example, a bibliographic entity in >> a MARC record could be associated with any FRBR entity; or FRBR >> entities could be related even though where entire >> Work-Expression-Manifestation-Item hierarchy does not exist, e.g. to >> relate a frbr:Work to a frbr:Manifestation without the need of a >> frbr:Expression to link them through. The property is symmetric (if a >> <_:work> ov:associatedEntity <_:item> then <_:item> >> ov:associatedEntity <_:work>. It is not transitive (items may be >> associated with the same work but not be in the same WEMI chain, for >> example)." >> >> Or is that just too generic? >> >> kc >> >> Quoting Ross Singer <[email protected]>: >> >>> Ok, I just created: >>> http://open.vocab.org/terms/associatedEntity >>> >>> which links two frbr:Endeavours together symmetrically. >>> >>> -Ross. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Ross Singer >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> Karen, Erik is right that: >>>> >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/works/OL262758W/> >>>> frbr:Manifestation <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL10236414M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL10636839M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL10681592M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL10686044M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL13268284M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL1937352M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL20352933M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL21968605M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL22836306M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24374464M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL24375966M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL3969888M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL5416735M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL5526619M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL6363476M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7261137M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7262049M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7262683M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7603172M/>, >>>> <http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7851787M/> ; >>>> a frbr:Work . >>>> >>>> isn't going to work (frbr:Manifestation being a class, not a >>>> property). While you're right that there is no (current) obvious way >>>> to go jump over frbr:Entities in the WEMI chain, there are some >>>> options here. >>>> >>>> For the version of the OL data that we host in the Platform, we're >>>> using dcterms:hasVersion/isVersionOf. >>>> >>>> http://api.talis.com/stores/openlibrary/meta?about=http://openlibrary.org/works/OL262758W&output=xml >>>> >>>> which isn't great, but the fact that both ends of the chain are >>>> frbr:Entities, we can infer the meaning. Even better would be add >>>> properties to http://open.vocab.org/: something like >>>> hasManifestation/manifestationOf. Perhaps even better would be to >>>> leverage http://vocab.org/frbr/core.html#Endeavour - associatedEntity >>>> as a property name perhaps? - that makes the modeling less >>>> complicated. That way we know that these are in the same WEMI chain, >>>> but we don't necessarily have to explicitly define /what/ it is in the >>>> relationship. >>>> >>>> -Ross. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Karen Coyle <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> Quoting Erik Hetzner <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> What I meant to be getting at is that the rdf:type of the resources >>>>>> M1, M2, ... is (currently) workManifested, while the predicate linking >>>>>> W and M1, M2, ... is frbr:Manifestation. I think this is backwards; >>>>>> they rdf:type should be frbr:Manifestation, while the predicate should >>>>>> be workManifested. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, Erik. From this conversation I have come to the realization >>>>> that there is no way to say: "this Work is Manifested as..." using >>>>> FRBR concepts. Instead, what I need to do is to create short "records" >>>>> for each manifestation that in effect each say: "manifests WorkX". I >>>>> don't think I can encapsulate the whole in a single rdf/xml unit >>>>> without creating some uber-structure that holds them together (which >>>>> would perhaps be a representation of FRBR Group 1 as a super-class, >>>>> something the the FRBR committee has rejected). I'll mock up something >>>>> and post it before I code it into the OL template. >>>>> >>>>> kc >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> As to which direction workManifested points, or its domain or range, I >>>>>> have no clue, but I assume you are correct here. >>>>>> >>>>>> best, Erik >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Ol-tech mailing list >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-tech >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Karen Coyle >>>>> [email protected] http://kcoyle.net >>>>> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >>>>> m: 1-510-435-8234 >>>>> skype: kcoylenet >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Ol-tech mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-tech >>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Ol-tech mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-tech >>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Karen Coyle >> [email protected] http://kcoyle.net >> ph: 1-510-540-7596 >> m: 1-510-435-8234 >> skype: kcoylenet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Ol-tech mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-tech >> To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to >> [email protected] >> > _______________________________________________ > Ol-tech mailing list > [email protected] > http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-tech > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to > [email protected] > -- Karen Coyle [email protected] http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet _______________________________________________ Ol-tech mailing list [email protected] http://mail.archive.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ol-tech To unsubscribe from this mailing list, send email to [email protected]
