On Tuesday 09 January 2007 20:01, Hamie wrote:
> On Tuesday 09 January 2007 11:10, Lourens Veen wrote:
> > On Tuesday 09 January 2007 11:38, Hamie wrote:
> > > The way I see Open Hardware is
> > >
> > > * The freedom to use the hardware, for any purpose (freedom 0).
> > > * The freedom to study how the hardware works, and adapt it to
> > > your needs (freedom 1). Access to the register level
> > > documentation and interface timing information is a precondition
> > > for this.
> >
> > How would you adapt the hardware having only register level
> > documentation? You would need more than only the outside interface;
> > you'd need board schematics for example to be able to replace
> > broken parts.
>
> If you have the interface timing you have pretty much all you need.
> Perhaps I should have said pin descriptions as well. But I was
> thinking at the chip level. Not board level as a whole.

Then you can't adapt the hardware at all. Well I suppose you could cut 
off an unused pin, but I don't think we should be worrying about that.

> > > * The freedom to redistribute copies of documentation so you can
> > > help your neighbor (freedom 2).
> >
> > Help your neighbour doing what? Use his own hardware maybe, but
> > that's covered under freedom 0 already.
>
> I've seen/heard of agreements that would stop you talking to anyone
> who hadn't made the pledge as well... Hmm... Info on games consoles
> used to be like that didn't it? (It seems to be more open now, but
> still fairly tight & you still can't do with it what you like & then
> help someone else to do the same thing).

Yeah, NDAs. They're quite common. But the point of freedom 2 for 
software is that you can copy the hardware.

> > > * The freedom to improve the hardware, and release your
> > > improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits
> > > (freedom 3). Access to the register level documentation and
> > > interface timing information is a precondition for this.
> >
> > And again, you need more than that.
>
> Maybe we differ in what I mean by register & interface... For
> instance the phillips TDA7033 (FM Decoder)... That would pretty much
> qualify, because you can buy it (In theory, I'm not sure I've found a
> source for quantity of 1 anywhere though), and the doc savailable
> describe the registers & pinout with timing interface. Sufficient to
> build a board with it.
>
> That pretty much describes what we'd like to see for hardware in the
> computer world... No?

Yes, and that is what the FSF would like as well. But I think that this 
is all the same single freedom. The freedom to use the hardware, for 
any purpose (freedom 0). Freely available documentation is a 
precondition for this.

> > > Looks fairly similiar to what was in the previous messages about
> > > free software really. But it's the Interface (Register and
> > > timings) that are important. Not the arrangement of transistors
> > > in the package. (This may be an important point for some
> > > people... I think it enables proprietary hardware that simply has
> > > a Free & Open interface..
> >
> > But these (documented and use-for-any-purpose, and Free design) are
> > two separate things, and you are conflating them.
>
> No, I know they're two separate & very different things... However, I
> don't think free design is mandatory... But documented &
> use-for-any-purpose is very important. (Not to say free design isn't
> nice, but unless you're talking something able to be implemented on
> an ASIC [assuming you're talking chip or chipset], it's pretty much
> useless to the average person because who's got the money to build a
> custom chip, or even ASIC...

That's fine, so you're supporting Open Standards Compliant/Free 
Documentation/Free Software Compatible or whatever we'll call it 
hardware. That's fine. But it has nothing to do with modifying the 
hardware, only with use

Lourens

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