+1 Raphael. I completely agreed. Pricing should very with respect to country. There is huge difference between developed and developing countries.
Thanks & Regards Robin Bahadur On May 18, 2014 10:58 PM, "Raphael Valyi" <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello Fabien and Marcelo and the others, > > Some inline comments and I just want to clarify a point at the end; > > > On Sun, May 18, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Fabien Pinckaers <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> [...] >> >> 2/ Why don't we charge according to real usage? (e.g.: 5 users on CRM, 3 >> on accounting, 7 on projects?) >> >> Because it's impossible to predict for yearly contracts! >> > > Of course > > >> 3/ Is it expensive? >> >> Absolutly not. It's 2x to 3x cheaper than the market average. Check this >> comparison of software vendors: >> https://www.odoo.com/website/image/ir.attachment/537400/datas >> >> Moreover, partners get 50% to 60% discount on the public price. It means >> gold partners pay only 4.8€ / $6 per user and per application. Whatever >> the market, it's super cheap and super competitive. >> > > In fact it depends very much on the country: for instance in France it's > not very expensive indeed. It's probably not so expensive n the USA either. > But in a country like Brazil (where is Marcelo or me) it's absolutely > prohibitive (and no SMB's don't use the ERP listed in the comparison > exactly because they are totally prohibitive here too, so where these > products sum may be 60% of the marketshare in some norhern economies, they > have less than 3% of the market in a country like Brazil ). > > 'course it's not OpenERP'SA fault if some countries are richer or poorer > than some others, there is nothing OpenERP SA can do about this and I don't > blame you for having a pricing adapted to where your R&D cost is. I'm also > way more satisfied by the quality of the product now that the important R&D > is done again in Belgium vs the very poor quality of what what landing on > trunk say 2 years ago when it was more offshore (don't get me wrong it's > not a problem of country but of organization). > > Now, yes I absolutely blame OpenERP SA for making life impossible to > partners located in poorer countries as if it was their own fault the > market will not afford their product. It's easy, the worst clashes between > OpenERP and its partners systematically happen in these countries that are > not so riches when OpenERP pressure the partners like if they could sell > like in northern economies. > > IMHO that would be a lot more constructive to assume the situation and > work together instead of loosing so much energy in absolutely sterile > commercial negociations/fights where it seems market should auto-destruct > totally like it happened in Spain or Argentina already until OpenERP SA > start understanding a little part f what local partners where telling for > years. > > [...] > >> 5/ localization & customization >> >> Odoo has a lot of huge advantages compared to traditional ERPs: >> - higher scope: website, ecommerce, cubes analysis, CRM, ... >> - better usability, faster implementation >> - better flexibility: allows custom development and high level config >> >> Odoo also has a few disadvantages compared to traditional ERPs, the main >> one is the localization in some countries. (something we will fix for v9 >> as we will massively invest in accounting l18n) >> > > Again, I would like acts instead of just words. We are waiting for your > merge proposals you know... > But you know, before promising and promising, please just start listening > localization authors. > Last patches we needed in the core to get Brazilian localization supported > better took 3 months to be reviewed while it was absolutely trivial code, > before that it took 5 months... Such trivial merge proposals like > > https://code.launchpad.net/~camptocamp/openobject-addons/trunk-refactor-po-merge-lep/+merge/216841 > would make again dramatic improvement for localizations overriders but > again aren't properly prioritized. > > So instead of making promises while in fact you are dropping around 10 > official modules every year, I would love to see more concrete action that > doesn't cost much to your R&D but would bring a lot to OpenERP users in > countries with complex localizations. > > >> Not only we are not more expensive, but we are at least 2x to 3x >> cheaper. And, if you take the partner price 4.8€ per user and per app, >> we are 6x cheaper than the competition! >> > > Again depends totally on the country. Here in Brazil, if I take OpenERP > out of the box say + localization the way it is currently it's not more > useful than national ERP's costing half or less the price of OpenERP'SA > Enterprise contract only (yes OpenERP is better on certain things, but it's > still inferior regarding many legal requirements companies just need). > > The Brazilian localization weights like 1/2 of the server layer codebase > (around 20 000 lines of code and we are proud it's so compact still > https://github.com/openerpbrasil/l10n_br_core/tree/develop + OCA > dependencies + pysped +..). So without any money to maintain and develop > this code base, without 1st level support you are already 2 or 3 times more > expensive than the real competition! Sorry, but I don't see where the > business model of the partner fits here... > > Again I don't blame you for this, but I would prefer OpenERP SA > acknowledge these facts instead of thinking guys like Akretion are bad > partners and that others would probably do better. Because so far, the > others you thought would do better promised you they would do better just > because they were absolutely unaware of how hard was the challenge, that > means you partnered with the most naive guys quite often (not always please > don't make me tell what I'm not telling) and theses guys didn't lasted not > even for a single year. > > You know, Marcelo Bello is a good example, as he told in another post, he > first selected one of these partners promoted by OpenERP SA, the one > OpenERP SA was even believing would do a better "Certified Training > Partner" than us when they made OpenERP Account Manager believe they were > important fr the localization after they showed Igor a forked repo of our > work where they had quickly removed all our copyrights to make Igor believe > they authored the stuff. > > https://github.com/proge/openerp-pt_br/commit/23fe26726836e58251f82cc17d011cb06135f7a6 > But you see, no magic happened, they failed to deliver Marcelo's project > just as he came here to complain. So again, that would be cool your account > managers and commercial staff would be less naive and focus on developing > what works instead. I would certainly have to complain less about OpenERP > SA commercial policy if you did so. So we could be in quite a different > virtuous circle. > > And this is not just about us Akretion no. > A similar situation happened in Argentina or Spain a few years ago. > Extremely skilled people such as NaNtic where commercially insulted by > OpenERP SA. > Instead my ex-employer was promoted Gold in Spain with no real skill in > this country at that time (sorry to have to say it). > > Today Akretion is making OpenERP work in Brazil with a Catalan (that is in > Spain for people who don't know, although it's not the way they like to be > assimilated) company that 3 years ago, believed that OpenERP SA partner > recommendation. > Then what? > Of course they got their project initially failed by this partner in > Spain... > And then rescued by Minorissa and others. > > Today their extension project in Brazil is being a success with us (in > Vitoria) but it's almost impossible to get them buy an Enterprise contract > because they have such a bad image of OpenERP SA because of what happened > in Spain with OpenERP SA partner recommendation that made them loose so > much much money... > > So I mean, all that shit because OpenERP SA didn't want to negociate > properly with NaNtic or other initial pioneers of the Spanish localization > just like this is happening with us? > > I mean enough is enough my friend. If you do or let do too much commercial > shit, things will certainly end up surfacing again and this is not a good > company strategy I believe. > > I'm sure there should be many such story as Marcelo or that last company > in many countries. > > When I see you'll now account only for partners new contract to rank them, > I cannot stop thinking this is an absolute time bomb for the sustainability > of the projects (it's impossible to acquire real ERP projects forever at > the same rate when you take the cost of maintaining them into account). I > mean real ERP projects, not just a rotation of SaaS users satisfied by a > CRM. > > > [...] >> >> The sustainability of every product is directly linked to it's ability >> to create a sustainable model where partners and publishers get enough >> revenues to grow their activities on the product. >> > > Yes. > But sustainability is a matter of cost / benefit. In fact lot's of open > source product are better organized how they delegate things to their > community so that it cost them much less. > Tryton may not be better than OpenERP no. But still it's shows a product > can evolve a good deal of what OpenERP did with just a fraction of the > money by being better organized with its community (again not telling it's > better, overall just telling they are a lot more efficient at evolving the > product). Like may be Tryton is developing 4x slower than OpenERP. But for > how much less money? 100x less money spent? Talking about efficiency. > > And again Fabien, > there are many open source products that are funded in Northern economies > but sell absolutely nothing in developing countries. If I take Compiere for > instance, they were selling a few contracts in the USA and Europe. But in > Brazil, as far as I know they were selling absolutely nothing and BTW this > is exactly because they didn't had a practical mode in Latin America that > Adempiere developed here (and in South East Asia). I doubt MySQL or MongoDB > are selling a lot in Brazil either for instance. > > And even, you should consider that even in less rich economies, there is > corruption or even without corruption, there are still a few bigger > companies or national departments that may invest money on open source. But > let's say it's not the focus of OpenERP the last 2 years (nor was the focus > of small Akretion these days). I'm happy with the last WMS and framework > evolutions thoughs because that could also make OpenERP more viable for > bigger deployments though. > > >> >> This requires a lot of things like: having a great product allowing good >> service margins, a good price for the publisher, happy customers, etc. >> >> > What kind of business puts potential clients in front of active >> > paying clients? The model is wrong wrong wrong. >> >> What's wrong is to have a pricing so cheap that it does not allow to >> sustain the development of the product, or too few customers because the >> product is not competitive. That's what killed some products. >> > > Indeed. But again, you should consider you could cut R&D costs by 2 or 4 > just by using better community work instead of ignoring it. > Yes, that means you couldn't promise to investors you own such a large > part of the Intellectual Property either. So that would mean less > investment capacity. > Yes that's a different model. But eventually it's more sustainable. > > And there is not only the cost of R&D you know. So what will you do for > the guys that won't pay your Enterprise services or your SaaS offer? > You will spend on lawyers to fight around the Odoo trademark usage, you > will spend on Account Managers and their managers to try to spin the > markets to get partners bringing you money (or just making you believe they > will) take over the ones not using your services. > > I mean, just like maintaining an Empire, like the roman one or the USA > one, all that infrastructure does have a certain cost... > > If your take the extreme case of proprietary products like Microsoft, > Oracle or Apple, what % of their spending these guys do on marketing to > spin the market? > How much do they spend on lawyers and lobbying to try to break the > alternative? > > I mean you have to be very careful not jumping in an auto destruction > spiral where every week the managers you named would make you believe that > the best solution is to increase these kind of spending to maintain your > editor power. Because eventually the spiral will keep accelerating and at > the end of the story, because the product is protected by the GNU AGPL > which is the social contract by which the community accepted contributing > to the project, the empire would collapse. > > > >> > If Odoo was a ready-to-use software then the model would make a >> > lot of sense. But they are ignoring the importance of localization & >> > customization. If I wanted off the shelf software I wouldn't bother >> > going open source. >> >> Our customers don't choose Odoo beause it's open source. They choose >> Odoo because it's better (products and/or servives of partners) >> > > Depends. I believe OpenERP made most of its revenues through the partner > network and these partners certainly choose OpenERP because it is open > source. > > > >> We should stop being frustrated of being open source. It's not because >> we are open source that we should be cheaper. The only thing that >> matters for a customer is to have a great product at an affordable price. >> > > Agree. > > This however depends again very much on the maturity of market where you > are working. > Akretion is active both in France and Brazil. I would say in France we > have no problem being payed a good hourly price (relatively to the economy) > because customers understand we are worth the money we charge. But instead > in Brazil, in the SMB market, this is almost impossible. When we announce > some hourly price, most companies believe their internal programmer would > do the same for cheaper. They don't envision that somebody with 10 years of > experience and 5 with OpenERP will probably require 20x less time to do the > project and do it right so it justify having a 3x higher hourly cost than > using the trainee they hired last month. > And IMHO, OpenERP marketing has not really been helping that you know. In > fact we are successful in France exactly because people don't believe > OpenERP SA marketing. That is sad but this is true. > You can read this again if you don't believe me > http://people.via.ecp.fr/~alexis/openerp/#conseils-fin > > >> >> [...] >> >> The part of the commission on Odoo Enterprise is usually lower than 4% >> of the revenue a partner take on a project. So, their motivation is not >> on the commission. >> > > Again this depends totally on the project. Here i Brazil, the Enterprise > would often represent around 30% or 40% of what a partner would take on a > project. This is absolutely impossible. > > Yes Akretion sold a few Enterprises in the past here. But the price was > the old price and negociated. AND Akretion was totally under selling its > own consulting hours to get the Enterprise sales happen. > This is also because by 2011 or 2012, we absolutely needed a better > OpenEEP so selling these Enterprises was a way to be compatible with the > business model we where envisioning with OpenERP SA. > > So you see Marcelo, in a country like Brazil, the whole commission debate > is absolutely sterile because instead of taking a commission partners are > investing on their on to develop the OpenERP market! As for Akretion we did > 95% of that localization codebase, that is an absolutely huge investment if > you convert this into money. So we certainly wouldn't let somebody tell > partner X is worth better than Akretion when he just paid may be 10k USD to > OpenERP SA when our investment in the OpenERP localization represents may > be 300k USD instead. So we also certainly sold some Enterprise contracts > not because it was profitable but just to protect these investments we made > at some points... It's quite a different thing you see and it's sad I'm now > forced to explain these sort of things. > > But of course, Akretion selling Enterprise contract funded by their own > work in part don't scale at all, this is why we cannot hire very fast or > make new other projects very fast. Still the exact same thing happen for > the other companies of course. > > I'm very disappointed OpenERP SA couldn't lead that kind of basic market > analysis. > > > >> >> I may be wrong. I am open to discuss this during the community days. >> > > Yeah sure. In any case I think the points I'm making here aren't really > new, so I'm not very optimistic things evolve here. I had told this to Marc > Laporte and you in person 2 years ago. Today things seem just worst as > Marcelo mentioned. > > > That being said, this is not such a big deal. As I said, it's absolutely > common to have open source companies sell in Northern economies and sell > nothing in emerging markets. > > The only thing I would appreciate is commercial respect of such basic > economic realities so we still work together despite may be little economic > collaboration (at least that's probably better than nothing) instead of > forcing us to have to denounce OpenERP SA commercial policy loudly to > protect our business which I believe is not profitable to anybody. > > > Regards. > > -- > Raphaël Valyi > Founder and consultant > http://twitter.com/rvalyi <http://twitter.com/#!/rvalyi> > +55 21 3942-2434 > www.akretion.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community > Post to : [email protected] > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~openerp-community > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >
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