I will, if you can prove you know enough about computer security and writing secure code.
Adam > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:opensim-dev- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Melanie > Sent: Saturday, 11 July 2009 6:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > As far as I now, the "currency" project (DTL currency) is maintained > by DTL and may not accept outside developers. > > Melanie > > Aldon Hynes wrote: > > Melanie, et al., > > > > Thanks for the update. I've joined the opencurrency project and > have put > > in a request to join the currency project as well. Is there any > > documentation on how to install this? > > > > I've added links to both projects to the bottom of the Money page > in the > > OpenSim wiki. Is the OpenSim Wiki sufficient for handling this > project, or > > is there need and interest in a parallel Wiki specific to currency > > implementations for OpenSim? > > > > Aldon > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Melanie > > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:17 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > > > The project is "opencurrency" on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP > > server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation. > > > > Melanie > > > > Aldon Hynes wrote: > >> Melanie, Fly Man, et al., > >> > >> It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on > forge > >> and that there are people interested in working on developing it. > On > >> Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project > and > >> asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one > stepped > >> forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting > >> implementation. > >> > >> I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim > Wiki > > there > >> is the > >> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which "is intended as an open > > discussion > >> board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system". > Unfortunately, > > it > >> does not provide any links to sample implementations. > >> > >> It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. > After > >> reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find > >> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching > through > > the > >> repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides > >> information about doing an installation of the module. > (Installation > >> information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) > >> > >> It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled > webserver, > >> which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It > would > > be > >> interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or > perhaps a > >> lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a > > standard > >> OpenSim installation. > >> > >> With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and > help > >> document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that > could > >> potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, > Jeroen was > >> asking about a WiXTD interface). > >> > >> All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two > weeks. > > I > >> will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on > this > >> substantially until August. However, I would love to get some > responses > > now > >> and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone > that > >> wants it. > >> > >> Aldon > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Melanie > >> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >> > >> > >> Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and > >> keeping it available. > >> > >> I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had > >> it for more than a year. > >> > >> We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making > >> it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. > >> We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have > >> remove the interfaces. > >> We just can't risk it in core. > >> > >> Melanie > >> > >> Fly Man wrote: > >>> Well, what a long discussion about something that was already > decided > >>> long ago .... > >>> > >>> There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around > >>> with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related > things. > >>> > >>> The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I > left > >>> the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: > "It's > >>> SAMPLE money" > >>> > >>> I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak > >>> and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. > >>> > >>> The story continues ....... > >>> > >>> 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short <[email protected]>: > >>>> The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may > think > >>>> and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not > including a > >>>> money module. > >>>> > >>>> I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe > continuing > >>>> to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing > >>>> ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great > effort on > >>>> the project and completely needless. > >>>> > >>>> OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses > currently > >>>> in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being > implemented, > >>>> either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that > the core > >>>> will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in- > adequate. > >>>> (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). > >>>> > >>>> Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the > scope > >>>> of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the > >>>> module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of- > core > >>>> module for handling money and an in-core one. > >>>> > >>>> If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards > creating > >>>> an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite > rapidly. > >>>> > >>>> /Snowcrash > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: > >>>>> Hi Neb, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the > >>>>> arguments. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the > alpha > >>>>> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, > through > >>>>> beta, and onto release. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for > a > >>>>> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is > released) > >>>>> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to > the > >>>>> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third > party > >>>>> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where > the two > >>>>> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), > and > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> are sourced from different suppliers. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Now, please explain to me the difference between: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency > module, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been > >>>>> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset > >>>>> server malfunction? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of > >>>>> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from > the > >>>>> currency module. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or > eventually > >>>>> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so > much > >>>>> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still > loses > >>>>> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents > just 2 > >>>>> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Is there any real difference between: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up > then on > >>>>> my balance, > >>>>> > >>>>> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, > losing US > >>>>> $10's worth of inworld currency > >>>>> > >>>>> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency > equivalent > >>>>> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the > same > >>>>> time: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Currency module = big risk > >>>>> > >>>>> Asset server = no risk > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for > risk > >>>>> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that > risk, > >>>>> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is > that > >>>>> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as > SL > >>>>> does) by a carefully worded TOS. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Rock > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Nebadon > >>>>> Izumi > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Rock, > >>>>> > >>>>> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do > not > >>>>> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for > that > >>>>> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money > around, > >>>>> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is > secure, > >>>>> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk > so > >>>>> that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument > you > >>>>> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say > no > >>>>> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can > make > >>>>> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, > >>>>> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a > professional who > >>>>> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this > software > >>>>> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide > the > >>>>> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do > things > >>>>> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. > You > >>>>> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change > the > >>>>> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we > souldnt > >>>>> even be discussing this as an option until well after > opensimulator > >>>>> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again > >>>>> repeat, it currently is not!!! > >>>>> > >>>>> Neb > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers > >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree > with > >>>>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be > >>>>> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything > that > >>>>> people have bought with an external currency module) is not > considered > >>>>> even more of a risk. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Rock > >>>>> > >>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stefan > >>>>> Andersson > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Rock, > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been > declared as > >>>>> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the > >>>>> custom implementation/third party provider layer. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the > line > >>>>> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external > >>>>> module creators and custom implementation. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a > module, > >>>>> tailored for the specific use case, be created. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often > it's a > >>>>> case of weighting several variables against each other. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> In this case, it's been a long standing stance that > implementation of > >>>>> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core > >>>>> distribution. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that > people > >>>>> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live > and > >>>>> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free > from > >>>>> that with a "suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk", > it's not > >>>>> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose > our > >>>>> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct > >>>>> economic damage. We generally don't want to take decisions for > our > >>>>> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy > >>>>> decision. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside > of > >>>>> core would be an indication that it's right not having one > inside; if > >>>>> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either > means > >>>>> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation > is > >>>>> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general > >>>>> public. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs > a > >>>>> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before > >>>>> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core > distribution. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> /Stefan > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Colin > B. > >>>>> Withers > >>>>> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have > it, > >>>>> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using > either > >>>>> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D > chatroom. > >>>>> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed > my > >>>>> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational > >>>>> purposes. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual > world, > >>>>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential > to > >>>>> that. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency > >>>>> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my > money" > >>>>> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever > opensim > >>>>> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real > >>>>> estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is > >>>>> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to > >>>>> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be > >>>>> liable for the claims of others. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow > it) by > >>>>> use of a carefully worded TOS. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might > >>>>> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost > US$$$" or > >>>>> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several > >>>>> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any > >>>>> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency > module. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Rock > >>>>> > >>>>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, > has > >>>>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris > Hart > >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and > no > >>>>> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and > >>>>> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And > >>>>> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency > >>>>> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage > correctly. > >>>>> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you > want > >>>>> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out > there > >>>>> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want > (hence > >>>>> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand > core > >>>>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially > come > >>>>> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Chris > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> From: Colin B. Withers > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and > OpenCurrency > >>>>> removed? > >>>>> > >>>>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing > more > >>>>> than 3D chatrooms. > >>>>> > >>>>> Rock > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: [email protected] > >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > Melanie > >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM > >>>>> To: [email protected] > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > >>>>> > >>>>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency > >>>>> implementation. > >>>>> > >>>>> Melanie > >>>>> > >>>>> Melvin Carvalho wrote: > >>>>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids? > >>>>> > > >>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<[email protected]> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, > meaning my > >>>>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw > >>>>> OPENCURRENCY > >>>>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need > help. > >>>>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS > >>>>> >> [email protected] > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> >> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>>> >> [email protected] > >>>>> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>>> >> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>>> > Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>>> > [email protected] > >>>>> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>>> > >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>>>> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: > >>>>> 07/05/09 17:54:00 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>>> [email protected] > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>>> [email protected] > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Opensim-dev mailing list > >>> [email protected] > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >>> > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Opensim-dev mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Opensim-dev mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Opensim-dev mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Opensim-dev mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list [email protected] https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
