As far as I now, the "currency" project (DTL currency) is maintained by DTL and may not accept outside developers.
Melanie Aldon Hynes wrote: > Melanie, et al., > > Thanks for the update. I've joined the opencurrency project and have put > in a request to join the currency project as well. Is there any > documentation on how to install this? > > I've added links to both projects to the bottom of the Money page in the > OpenSim wiki. Is the OpenSim Wiki sufficient for handling this project, or > is there need and interest in a parallel Wiki specific to currency > implementations for OpenSim? > > Aldon > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Melanie > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 9:17 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > The project is "opencurrency" on OpenSim forge. It uses a LAMP > server. The ASP.NET is a different implementation. > > Melanie > > Aldon Hynes wrote: >> Melanie, Fly Man, et al., >> >> It is good to hear that a sample currency module is available on forge >> and that there are people interested in working on developing it. On >> Wednesday, I sent an email, offering to help with a currency project and >> asked if anyone knew where the sample currency module was. No one stepped >> forward to help, or to tell me where I could find any exisiting >> implementation. >> >> I searched around and couldn't find anything. On the OpenSim Wiki > there >> is the >> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Money which "is intended as an open > discussion >> board for ideas regarding an in-world financial system". Unfortunately, > it >> does not provide any links to sample implementations. >> >> It does seem like this may primarily be a documentation problem. After >> reading your emails today and doing a bit of searching, I did find >> http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/ In searching through > the >> repository, I did find Currency_DesignDocument.doc which provides >> information about doing an installation of the module. (Installation >> information can currently be found in section 2.2.1.1.2 ) >> >> It does appear as if it depends on having a ASP.NET enabled webserver, >> which rules me out from being able to do testing at this time. It would > be >> interesting to see if a LAMP based server could be developed, or perhaps a >> lighter weight service that simply uses the existing databases in a > standard >> OpenSim installation. >> >> With that, I am willing to set up an OpenSimCurrency Wiki and help >> document this project. I can help with a LAMP money server that could >> potentially be integrated with other interfaces. (For example, Jeroen was >> asking about a WiXTD interface). >> >> All of that said, I am heading off on vacation for the next two weeks. > I >> will have spotty access here and there and can't really focus on this >> substantially until August. However, I would love to get some responses > now >> and see what we can do to get currency much more usable for anyone that >> wants it. >> >> Aldon >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]]on Behalf Of Melanie >> Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 7:12 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >> >> >> Well, I am maintaining the sample currency module on forge now and >> keeping it available. >> >> I believe you are aware that I have a commercial RMT module, and had >> it for more than a year. >> >> We have simply decided it can't be in core, but we are still making >> it as easy to access and integrate it as we can. >> We're not against people having money. If we were, we would have >> remove the interfaces. >> We just can't risk it in core. >> >> Melanie >> >> Fly Man wrote: >>> Well, what a long discussion about something that was already decided >>> long ago .... >>> >>> There is the OpenCurrency module for those that want to play around >>> with it and there are some other ppl working on Money related things. >>> >>> The removal of the SampleMoney module was 1 of the things that I left >>> the OpenSim development scene, as the name of the module said: "It's >>> SAMPLE money" >>> >>> I know there 3 people working on a real currency module as we speak >>> and 1 of them has succesfully integrated it into the OpenSim now. >>> >>> The story continues ....... >>> >>> 2009/7/8 Snowdrop Short <[email protected]>: >>>> The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think >>>> and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a >>>> money module. >>>> >>>> I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing >>>> to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing >>>> ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on >>>> the project and completely needless. >>>> >>>> OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently >>>> in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, >>>> either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core >>>> will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. >>>> (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). >>>> >>>> Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope >>>> of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the >>>> module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core >>>> module for handling money and an in-core one. >>>> >>>> If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating >>>> an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. >>>> >>>> /Snowcrash >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: >>>>> Hi Neb, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the >>>>> arguments. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha >>>>> stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through >>>>> beta, and onto release. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a >>>>> virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) >>>>> and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the >>>>> Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party >>>>> and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two >>>>> most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> are sourced from different suppliers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Now, please explain to me the difference between: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been >>>>> bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset >>>>> server malfunction? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of >>>>> people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the >>>>> currency module. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually >>>>> will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much >>>>> development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses >>>>> its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 >>>>> or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is there any real difference between: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on >>>>> my balance, >>>>> >>>>> 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US >>>>> $10's worth of inworld currency >>>>> >>>>> 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent >>>>> to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same >>>>> time: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Currency module = big risk >>>>> >>>>> Asset server = no risk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk >>>>> (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, >>>>> and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that >>>>> all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL >>>>> does) by a carefully worded TOS. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rock >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nebadon >>>>> Izumi >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rock, >>>>> >>>>> I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not >>>>> wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that >>>>> reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, >>>>> the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, >>>>> yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so >>>>> that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you >>>>> are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no >>>>> to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make >>>>> a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, >>>>> develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who >>>>> understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software >>>>> and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the >>>>> code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things >>>>> that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You >>>>> guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the >>>>> fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt >>>>> even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator >>>>> has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again >>>>> repeat, it currently is not!!! >>>>> >>>>> Neb >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with >>>>> it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be >>>>> considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that >>>>> people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered >>>>> even more of a risk. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rock >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stefan >>>>> Andersson >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rock, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as >>>>> out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the >>>>> custom implementation/third party provider layer. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line >>>>> for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external >>>>> module creators and custom implementation. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, >>>>> tailored for the specific use case, be created. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a >>>>> case of weighting several variables against each other. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of >>>>> a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core >>>>> distribution. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people >>>>> was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and >>>>> production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from >>>>> that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not >>>>> only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our >>>>> users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct >>>>> economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our >>>>> users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy >>>>> decision. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of >>>>> core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if >>>>> there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means >>>>> nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is >>>>> too use case specific for there to be any value for the general >>>>> public. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a >>>>> lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before >>>>> anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> /Stefan >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Colin B. >>>>> Withers >>>>> Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, >>>>> and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either >>>>> core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. >>>>> 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my >>>>> own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational >>>>> purposes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, >>>>> then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to >>>>> that. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency >>>>> module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" >>>>> is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim >>>>> is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real >>>>> estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is >>>>> implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to >>>>> software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be >>>>> liable for the claims of others. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by >>>>> use of a carefully worded TOS. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might >>>>> claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or >>>>> "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several >>>>> tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any >>>>> particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rock >>>>> >>>>> PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has >>>>> collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Hart >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no >>>>> plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and >>>>> collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And >>>>> quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency >>>>> system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. >>>>> You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want >>>>> to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there >>>>> that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence >>>>> I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core >>>>> developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come >>>>> back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Colin B. Withers >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency >>>>> removed? >>>>> >>>>> Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more >>>>> than 3D chatrooms. >>>>> >>>>> Rock >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [email protected] >>>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Melanie >>>>> Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency >>>>> >>>>> OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency >>>>> implementation. >>>>> >>>>> Melanie >>>>> >>>>> Melvin Carvalho wrote: >>>>> > Will currencies be distributed accross grids? >>>>> > >>>>> > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my >>>>> >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw >>>>> OPENCURRENCY >>>>> >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. >>>>> >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS >>>>> >> [email protected] >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> >> [email protected] >>>>> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> >> >>>>> > _______________________________________________ >>>>> > Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> > [email protected] >>>>> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> >>>>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>>>> Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: >>>>> 07/05/09 17:54:00 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>>> [email protected] >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Opensim-dev mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Opensim-dev mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Opensim-dev mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list [email protected] https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
