One huge difference between having OpenSim assets stolen vs. having real money stolen is that a lost asset means the *possible* loss of future sales, not the immediate loss of real money. Having money/account information stolen has 2 major disadvantages, 1) It's an immediate and substantial loss 2) It could be way more than a mere US$10 if your entire bank account is stolen or your identity is stolen.
OpenSim is about providing 3d virtual environments, not banking. Peace, Sean Colin B. Withers wrote: > Hi Neb, > > > > No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. > > > > Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha > stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through > beta, and onto release. > > > > Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. > > > > If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a > virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and > that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim > policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party and > procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two most > critical elements of a commerce system, ie: > > > > a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and > > > > b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) > > > > are sourced from different suppliers. > > > > Now, please explain to me the difference between: > > > > i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, > > > > ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought > with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server > malfunction? > > > > It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people > losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. > > > > Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually > will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? > > > > I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much > development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its > residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 > weeks ago is testament to that). > > > > Is there any real difference between: > > > > 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my > balance, > > 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing > US$10's worth of inworld currency > > 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent > to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? > > > > To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. > > > > I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: > > > > Currency module = big risk > > Asset server = no risk > > > > And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it > is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and > hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk > is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a > carefully worded TOS. > > > > Rock > > > > *From:* [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Rock, > > I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish > to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, > OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset > server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you > people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you > can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you are making > that has prompted the development team to flat out say no to everyone, > you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make a living, if > you want this functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system > yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who understands security > to evalute the risk assessment of this software and do the legal > research and you take on the risk and provide the code to everyone if > you all think it is so safe and ok to do things that lawyers and > security experts say we should not be doing. You guys can all argue to > you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact that this is a > monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be discussing this > as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven to be a safe > environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is not!!! > > Neb > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with > it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered > risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have > bought with an external currency module) is not considered even more of > a risk. > > > > Rock > > *From:* [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > [mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Stefan > Andersson > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM > > > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Rock, > > > > An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as > out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom > implementation/third party provider layer. > > > > There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for > what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module > creators and custom implementation. > > > > It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, > tailored for the specific use case, be created. > > > > As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a > case of weighting several variables against each other. > > > > In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a > monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. > > > > We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people > was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and > production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that > with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a > legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to > unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct economic damage. > We generally don’t want to take decisions for our users, but this one > would be considered a real-world risk policy decision. > > > > I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of > core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if > there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means > nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too > use case specific for there to be any value for the general public. > > > > At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot > more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything > could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. > > > > /Stefan > > > > *From:* [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > [mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Colin B. > Withers > *Sent:* den 7 juli 2009 15:27 > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and > does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core > solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D > chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own > Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. > > > > However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, > then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. > > > > I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module > in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" is a > specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is > used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, > for real world money (whether a currency module is implemented in core > or external) as if the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid > owner stands to lose rental income, or be liable for the claims of others. > > > > This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by > use of a carefully worded TOS. > > > > Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim > "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or "the > bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this > week, losing US$$$ in the process"? > > > > The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any > particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. > > > > Rock > > PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has > collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. > > > > *From:* [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > [mailto:[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hart > *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no > plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and > collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite > frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency system > should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. You can > do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want to pay > someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there that are > properly regulated by financial services authorities. > > > > Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I > believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core > developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come > back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints. > > > > Chris > > > > *From:* Colin B. Withers <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM > > *To:* [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency removed? > > Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more > than 3D chatrooms. > > Rock > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Melanie > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM > To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency > implementation. > > Melanie > > Melvin Carvalho wrote: >> Will currencies be distributed accross grids? >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> > Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my >> > grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY >> > has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. >> > Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS >> > [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > _______________________________________________ > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com> > Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: > 07/05/09 17:54:00 > > > > > -- > Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org -- Sean Hennessee UC Irvine _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list [email protected] https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
