maybe you can state to me where open simulator claims it is ready in anyway for production levels though, the opensimulator team makes zero claims that this software is in anyway ready for any commercial purposes, I would say if your uploading items into opensimulator that have monetary value, and you expect them to be secure, you are making a very very big mistake, not only do we not recommend you not use the economic system, we also recommend that anything that needs to be secured or not copied or stolen, not be uploaded into opensimulator, the risk is no differnt for assets than currency, and to be honest neither should be used for commercial tasks at this point, i am sure others will disagree with me, but i would say those people probably have not consulted with a Law Firm or Technology Security Experts, if you use OpenSimulator in anyway you are taking on major risk at this stage of the game, and expecting the Core Devs to take on risk for you is a fantasy. The hooks are there now for anyone to develop a monitary system and quite infact there is a sample one available right now from Deepthink on the forge, and you will see MAJOR warnings like this made by the creators of the software:
"*NOTE*: This software is provided 'as-is'. *DeepThink*?<http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/wiki/?pagename=DeepThink&parent_page=>makes absolutely no guaruntees as to the reliability or fitness of purpose. This module deals with running a fictional currency, and while a best effort has been made to securing this software and preventing bugs, *it should not be relied upon for absolute security*. *USE AT YOUR OWN RISK*. *Warning for those considering RMT trade with this:* If you are planning to put this into production with real money transfers, and you do not have the time to personally proceed with a *full audit of this codebase* (or hire someone to give you assurances), you are a fool and likely to get burnt.* If you do not have a advanced understanding of computer security, database security and financial security* and do not hire anyone who can provide those understandings,* then you should never consider utilizing this for nonfictional currencies*. *Furthermore, this software is not provided with any warranty or fitness of purpose, neither the developers (DeepThink?<http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/wiki/?pagename=DeepThink&parent_page=>), nor the OpenSimulator?<http://forge.opensimulator.org/gf/project/currency/wiki/?pagename=OpenSimulator&parent_page=>developers (or any associates) are liable for any damages caused by utilizing this software. This is provided to use at your own risk."* Now if the creators of this "Adam Frisby" thinks its bad to use the software he created, btw who is also a very Active core developer, if you guys think you can do a better job and take on all the risk go for it, i think in the end you will likely regret doing so at this stage of the game, but no one is stopping any of you from doing the work and providing it for everyone to use.. Otherwise i see no need to further this conversation anymore as the core devs are not going to do this work for you, end of story. Neb ** On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:17 AM, Colin B. Withers <colin.with...@eumetsat.int > wrote: > Hi Neb, > > > > No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the arguments. > > > > Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha stage, > but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through beta, and onto > release. > > > > Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. > > > > If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a virtual > world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) and that > virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the Opensim policy of > no currency module in core I went to a third party and procured a currency > module, I would have a situation where the two most critical elements of a > commerce system, ie: > > > > a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and > > > > b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) > > > > are sourced from different suppliers. > > > > Now, please explain to me the difference between: > > > > i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, > > > > ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been bought > with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset server > malfunction? > > > > It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of people > losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the currency module. > > > > Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually will > be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? > > > > I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much > development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses its > residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 or 3 weeks > ago is testament to that). > > > > Is there any real difference between: > > > > 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on my > balance, > > 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US$10's > worth of inworld currency > > 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent to > US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? > > > > To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. > > > > I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same time: > > > > Currency module = big risk > > Asset server = no risk > > > > And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk (it is > the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, and hence the > need to divest themselves of it). My position is that all risk is on the > grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL does) by a carefully > worded TOS. > > > > Rock > > > > *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: > opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Nebadon Izumi > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM > > *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Rock, > > I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not wish to > implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that reason, > OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, the asset > server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, yet you people > are all arguing that other people take on the risk so that you can have an > economic system, It is this exact argument you are making that has prompted > the development team to flat out say no to everyone, you can not expect > others to take on risk so you can make a living, if you want this > functionality so badly, you should A, develop the system yourself like we > said, or B hire a professional who understands security to evalute the risk > assessment of this software and do the legal research and you take on the > risk and provide the code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok > to do things that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. > You guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the fact > that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt even be > discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator has been proven > to be a safe environment, which i will once again repeat, it currently is > not!!! > > Neb > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers < > colin.with...@eumetsat.int> wrote: > > I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with it). > What I do not understand is how a currency module can be considered risky, > but the entire asset server (holding everything that people have bought with > an external currency module) is not considered even more of a risk. > > > > Rock > > *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: > opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Stefan Andersson > *Sent:* Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM > > > *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Rock, > > > > An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as out > of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the custom > implementation/third party provider layer. > > > > There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line for > what goes into the core, and what should be left to external module creators > and custom implementation. > > > > It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, > tailored for the specific use case, be created. > > > > As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a case > of weighting several variables against each other. > > > > In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of a > monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core distribution. > > > > We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people was > using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and production > environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from that with a “suit > yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not only a legal case, but > also a case of us not wanting to expose our users to unsafe and immature > code that could cause them direct economic damage. We generally don’t want > to take decisions for our users, but this one would be considered a > real-world risk policy decision. > > > > I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of core > would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if there is no > external module being maintained and used, it either means nobody see value > enough to work on it, or that any implementation is too use case specific > for there to be any value for the general public. > > > > At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a lot > more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before anything could be > considered for inclusion into the core distribution. > > > > /Stefan > > > > *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: > opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Colin B. Withers > *Sent:* den 7 juli 2009 15:27 > *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, and > does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either core > solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. 3D > chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my own Opensim > grid has been used by a US college for educational purposes. > > > > However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, then > commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to that. > > > > I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency module in > core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" is a specious > argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim is used as a > platform for a virtual world providing virtual real estate, for real world > money (whether a currency module is implemented in core or external) as if > the grid goes down due to software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental > income, or be liable for the claims of others. > > > > This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by use > of a carefully worded TOS. > > > > Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might claim > "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or "the bugs in > your software have contributed to me losing several tenants this week, > losing US$$$ in the process"? > > > > The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any particular > purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. > > > > Rock > > PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has > collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. > > > > *From:* opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [mailto: > opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de] *On Behalf Of *Chris Hart > *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM > *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no plans > to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and collaborative learning > has proved more than worthwhile to us. And quite frankly, the legal and tax > issues around running a currency system should require dedicated qualified > experts to manage correctly. You can do a huge amount without play money > inworld - and if you want to pay someone money for a product, there are many > solutions out there that are properly regulated by financial services > authorities. > > > > Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence I > believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core > developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come back > to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints. > > > > Chris > > > > *From:* Colin B. Withers <colin.with...@eumetsat.int> > > *Sent:* Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM > > *To:* opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > > *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency > removed? > > Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more than > 3D chatrooms. > > Rock > > -----Original Message----- > From: opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de [ > mailto:opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de<opensim-dev-boun...@lists.berlios.de>] > On Behalf Of Melanie > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM > To: opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency > implementation. > > Melanie > > Melvin Carvalho wrote: > > Will currencies be distributed accross grids? > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<bikc...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my > >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw OPENCURRENCY > >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. > >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS > >> bikc...@gmail.com > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Opensim-dev mailing list > >> Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Opensim-dev mailing list > > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: 07/05/09 > 17:54:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > -- > Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > Opensim-dev@lists.berlios.de > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > -- Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org
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