The core developers have for valid reasons (whatever others may think and argue, they are - at least - subjectively valid) for not including a money module.
I think it would be best to let this debate rest. I believe continuing to argue for a money module to be part of the core, is showing ingratitude to the core developers who has put in such a great effort on the project and completely needless. OpenSim is licensed via BSD, one of the most liberate licenses currently in common use, nothing prevents a money module from being implemented, either in close or open source. Furthermore I am convinced that the core will accept patches for hooks, if the current hooks prove in-adequate. (This has been done for other out-of-core modules). Even if the core team should decide a money module was within the scope of the project, it would still require volunteers to implement the module, so I fail to see the real difference between an out-of-core module for handling money and an in-core one. If all the passion thrown into this debate was directed towards creating an out-of-core module, it would spring into existence quite rapidly. /Snowcrash On Wed, 2009-07-08 at 17:17 +0200, Colin B. Withers wrote: > Hi Neb, > > > > No, I do get the point, but I am simply not convinced of the > arguments. > > > > Opensim is unsafe, understandably so. Right now, it is in the alpha > stage, but that is no reason not to pursue code from alpha, through > beta, and onto release. > > > > Let me put it this way, quite clearly.. > > > > If I, or anyone else, wanted to to use Opensim as a platform for a > virtual world, (not during alpha, or beta, but after it is released) > and that virtual would was to have commerce, ala SL, and due to the > Opensim policy of no currency module in core I went to a third party > and procured a currency module, I would have a situation where the two > most critical elements of a commerce system, ie: > > > > a) The asset server (produced by the core developers of opensim), and > > > > b) A currency module (produced by VW$$$.inc) > > > > are sourced from different suppliers. > > > > Now, please explain to me the difference between: > > > > i) People losing money due to a malfunction in the currency module, > > > > ii) People losing assets (that have a monetary value, having been > bought with real $$$ through the currency module) due to an asset > server malfunction? > > > > It seems to me that there is just as much, or even more risk, of > people losing valuable assets from the asset server, than from the > currency module. > > > > Is it then the devs' position that the asset server is (or eventually > will be) immune from the risk of loss of assets? > > > > I do not believe that position could ever be held. Even after so much > development work, both on the code and the backbone, SL still loses > its residents' assets (the huge losses sustained by residents just 2 > or 3 weeks ago is testament to that). > > > > Is there any real difference between: > > > > 1. Using US$10 to buy inworld currency, that does not show up then on > my balance, > > 2. Getting the inworld currency, but later due to a glitch, losing US > $10's worth of inworld currency > > 3. Buying an object inworld that costs the inworld currency equivalent > to US$10, and the object disappearing from my inventory? > > > > To my mind, in all three cases, I am US$10 down. > > > > I just don't see how BOTH these statements can be true at the same > time: > > > > Currency module = big risk > > Asset server = no risk > > > > And I have never argued that the devs should be responsible for risk > (it is the devs themselves that are arguing that they have that risk, > and hence the need to divest themselves of it). My position is that > all risk is on the grid owner, and that risk can be mitigated (as SL > does) by a carefully worded TOS. > > > > Rock > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nebadon > Izumi > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > > Rock, > > I do beleive your missing the point entirely, the reason we do not > wish to implement any money systems at this time, is exactly for that > reason, OpenSImulator is not a safe place to be slinging money around, > the asset server is not secure, nothing about opensimulator is secure, > yet you people are all arguing that other people take on the risk so > that you can have an economic system, It is this exact argument you > are making that has prompted the development team to flat out say no > to everyone, you can not expect others to take on risk so you can make > a living, if you want this functionality so badly, you should A, > develop the system yourself like we said, or B hire a professional who > understands security to evalute the risk assessment of this software > and do the legal research and you take on the risk and provide the > code to everyone if you all think it is so safe and ok to do things > that lawyers and security experts say we should not be doing. You > guys can all argue to you are blue in the face, it wont change the > fact that this is a monumentally horrible idea right now, we souldnt > even be discussing this as an option until well after opensimulator > has been proven to be a safe environment, which i will once again > repeat, it currently is not!!! > > Neb > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:06 AM, Colin B. Withers > <[email protected]> wrote: > > I fully understand that argument Stefan (although I do not agree with > it). What I do not understand is how a currency module can be > considered risky, but the entire asset server (holding everything that > people have bought with an external currency module) is not considered > even more of a risk. > > > > Rock > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stefan > Andersson > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:54 AM > > > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > > Rock, > > > > An implementation of a functional monetary system has been declared as > out of scope for OpenSim. It is something that has to go into the > custom implementation/third party provider layer. > > > > There is a live and ongoing discussion as of where to draw the line > for what goes into the core, and what should be left to external > module creators and custom implementation. > > > > It is within scope of OpenSim to provide hooks so that such a module, > tailored for the specific use case, be created. > > > > As a project we need to draw a scope line somewhere, and often it’s a > case of weighting several variables against each other. > > > > In this case, it’s been a long standing stance that implementation of > a monetary system is outside of the scope of the OpenSim core > distribution. > > > > We did provide the SampleMoneyModule, but the problem was that people > was using this unsafe and immature example code directly in live and > production environments. Though we could swear ourselves free from > that with a “suit yourself, it was wholly at your own risk”, it’s not > only a legal case, but also a case of us not wanting to expose our > users to unsafe and immature code that could cause them direct > economic damage. We generally don’t want to take decisions for our > users, but this one would be considered a real-world risk policy > decision. > > > > I believe that the very absence of a money implementation outside of > core would be an indication that it’s right not having one inside; if > there is no external module being maintained and used, it either means > nobody see value enough to work on it, or that any implementation is > too use case specific for there to be any value for the general > public. > > > > At any rate, it is my opinion that the whole economy domain needs a > lot more work and reach a much higher level of maturity before > anything could be considered for inclusion into the core distribution. > > > > /Stefan > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Colin B. > Withers > Sent: den 7 juli 2009 15:27 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > > If ReactionGrid uses no currency, and has no plans to ever have it, > and does not wish to get involded in virtual commerce, using either > core solutions or external solutions, then indeed it is a 3D chatroom. > 3D chatrooms are well suited to Educational purposes, and indeed my > own Opensim grid has been used by a US college for educational > purposes. > > > > However, for a virtual space to take on the mantle of a virtual world, > then commerce is an essential element, and currency is essential to > that. > > > > I think the argument that there is a risk in providing a currency > module in core, from those who might complain "your code ate my money" > is a specious argument. This charge could be levelled whenever opensim > is used as a platform for a virtual world providing virtual real > estate, for real world money (whether a currency module is > implemented in core or external) as if the grid goes down due to > software bugs the grid owner stands to lose rental income, or be > liable for the claims of others. > > > > This can all be mitigated against (in territotories that allow it) by > use of a carefully worded TOS. > > > > Should the development of opensim be halted because someone might > claim "your software crashed my hard-drive, and I have lost US$$$" or > "the bugs in your software have contributed to me losing several > tenants this week, losing US$$$ in the process"? > > > > The software is used 'as is', with no claims as fitness for any > particular purpose, and this would apply to any core currency module. > > > > Rock > > PS Another grid, that the owner ploughed 1000s of dollars into, has > collapsed recently, due to lack of a viable currency solution. > > > > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Chris Hart > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 3:50 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > > Couldn't disagree more - ReactionGrid has no inworld currency and no > plans to ever have it. Encouraging creativity, sharing, and > collaborative learning has proved more than worthwhile to us. And > quite frankly, the legal and tax issues around running a currency > system should require dedicated qualified experts to manage correctly. > You can do a huge amount without play money inworld - and if you want > to pay someone money for a product, there are many solutions out there > that are properly regulated by financial services authorities. > > > > > > Money should be something you can add in yourselves if you want (hence > I believe it's on Forge these days), but I completely understand core > developer reluctance to have code in trunk that could potentially come > back to haunt with "your code ate my money" complaints. > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > From: Colin B. Withers > > > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 1:30 PM > > > To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > > > > > Has this always been the case? Why was SampleMoney and OpenCurrency > removed? > > Without currency opensim regions and grids devolve into nothing more > than 3D chatrooms. > > Rock > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Melanie > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 11:47 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Opensim-dev] Currency > > OpenSim and the OpenSim project don't provide a grid currency > implementation. > > Melanie > > Melvin Carvalho wrote: > > Will currencies be distributed accross grids? > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Jason Fisher<[email protected]> > wrote: > >> Hi, as of revision 9000 or so, SAMPLEMONEY was removed, meaning my > >> grid no longer has currency based of wiredux. I also saw > OPENCURRENCY > >> has been removed. I really want currncy on my grid, and need help. > >> Anyone know something I can use on a later revision? THANKS > >> [email protected] > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Opensim-dev mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Opensim-dev mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.12.94/2208 - Release Date: > 07/05/09 17:54:00 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev > > > > > > -- > Michael Emory Cerquoni - Nebadon Izumi @ http://osgrid.org > > > _______________________________________________ > Opensim-dev mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev _______________________________________________ Opensim-dev mailing list [email protected] https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
