Yup! > On 4 Aug 2016, at 12:20, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 6:05 AM, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> well, if I'm not mistaken, Orsan is the only one who depends directly on the >> capitalist marketplace, > > Lynn and I do, too, indirectly. We live on US Social Security, which > was extracted from our past paychecks. It now sorta works for us like > a minimum somewhat guaranteed income, and if we live cheaply, it > allows us do almost anything we want that does not cost much money. > >> but I do not believe that is what motivates his >> opposition, I find that a reductionist interpretation, >> >> neither would I explain the non-binary approaches from the opposite >> reasoning, i.e. that these views are held because of a relative independence >> to the marketplace > > I agree with Anna below, however, that enculturation in a capitalist > marketplace affects everybody's outlook. You can conform in various > ways, or you can resist in various ways. But it will affect you. Don't > kid yourself. > > I think it is possible to achieve some degree of personal > transformation through struggle before the larger transformations, but > it ain't easy. > >> these reasonings may work on aggregate for structural explanations, but they >> can't explain individual choices >> >> >> Michel >> >>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 3:48 AM, Anna Harris <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> It often seems to me that the need to justify ones own position as opposed >>> to, rather than in addition to, or including others, comes from the >>> structural imperative to earn a living, which necessitates offering >>> something different and therefore of value in >>> >>> the market place. This is the inevitable concomitant of a capitalist >>> economy which requires people to have something of value which they can sell >>> to earn a living - labour, intellect, care, etc. >>> >>> >>> Anna >>> >>> >>> On 3 Aug 2016, at 21:31, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> One of your comments resonated with me. We have pretty much abandoned >>> seeking funding and have also stopped responding to request from other >>> people to help them with funding. That leaves holes. But I think we >>> gotta figure out how to support our own activities as much as >>> possible. I know, not always possible. >>> >>> We could try dues...that's what the old Nonpartisan League did and >>> they took over North Dakota and created the state bank, among other >>> things. >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 3:25 PM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Well I was expecting you and Peter would make this warning. And this >>> argument is about the methodology of analysis, or as Madron put it, and >>> Fabians would totally agree 'operational complexity management'. I think at >>> the current point of time complexity managers has more advanced tools and >>> infrastructures to manage the complexity that opposition forces added on >>> the complexity created by the intra-elite struggle. On the one hand there >>> emerges an alliance of 'delayists' (around next system project, new economy >>> alliance, de-growth so on) and on the radical left 'acclerationists' are >>> forming a constellation (around Negri and so on). Some from left like >>> Michael Aalbert, and parecon, David Harvey and rabel cities, negrists or >>> cognitive captalists 'platform cooperatvism', Eric Olin Wright and real >>> Utopias.. are counted in the next system alliance. On the driving seat, as >>> John Restakis prompted sometimes ago, there are networks which are funded by >>> OAK foundation of UK Royal-state, Rockefe >>> >>> llar, Ford, Soros foundation so on. These formed a founder alliance called >>> Edge Funders, whom Michel thinks are radicals. They fund all sort of spaces, >>> from WSF, to Left Forum, from the events Michel and Pat mentioned, to Ripess >>> -Synergia people (social solidarity economy discourse), from TNI to all sort >>> of movement building hubs. Yes There are contradictions every where, there >>> is a chaos too, but also there are some orders and regularities that are >>> telling us something, and most worrisome is no one is talking about with the >>> fear of not getting any funding and suffer economically. That state of >>> 'being determines the consciousness'. The more no one is willing to talk >>> about these openly the more things go worse. That is all I wanted to say.. >>> >>> >>> Orsan >>> >>> >>> On 3 aug. 2016, at 22:03, Bob Haugen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I snipped the previous contents, they were overloading my email >>> >>> viewer. And deleted the WSF from the distro list so they stop >>> >>> complaining at me. >>> >>> >>> Dear Orsan, I agree that alliances with aspects of the powers-that-be >>> >>> pose dangers. And co-optation happens. Fortunately, they don't want to >>> >>> ally with me anyway, otherwise I would need to thread some of those >>> >>> needles. >>> >>> >>> I would, however, repost what I understood from Peter's message. If we >>> >>> are dialectical materialists, we gotta do a dialectical analysis of >>> >>> all these forces and their contradictions and also and maybe >>> >>> especially their internal contradictions. >>> >>> >>> And even after the revolution or transformation or whatever, there >>> >>> will still be contradictions. That's life. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NetworkedLabour mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> http://lists.contrast.org/mailman/listinfo/networkedlabour >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org >> >> P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net >> >> Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens >> >> #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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