thanks Orsan, comments much appreciated, Michel
On Mon, Aug 15, 2016 at 12:49 AM, Orsan <[email protected]> wrote: > > On 14 aug. 2016, at 16:48, Michel Bauwens <[email protected]> > wrote: > > thanks for putting time in this ... (though I was asking for evidence of > gulen support for jason bourne movies <g>) > > > You are welcome Michel, though I didn't say Gulen funded Bourne movies, > but associated with the interest of those forces, according to my > interpretation (which is an interpretation) of it. There are of course > internal and intra-contradictions between such forces and actors to be > interpreted to. As of my knowledge best of such interpretations is Kees van > der Pijl's third volume of on political economy and modes of foreign > relations (2014). Full of empirical evidence backed and informed by string > theory. > > I have a quite different interpretation of bourne ... the assange and the > girl are portrayed sympathetically, the CIA is presented as entirely led by > crooks at all levels, with a few ethical lone riders being fought by the > system .. but I guess that's a matter of interpretation > > > Sure.. > > I retain from your arguments that you see there are two factions in the > ruling class, including a more liberal one, which is entirely plausible, > but that the evidence for the concrete links you assume have be researched, > which is fine, > > > Mainly two global fraction from west engages in systemic struggle, and > between the hegemonic forces or block they lead and those forces from > peripheral internationalist and nationalist blocks there is a major > transnational struggle going on. So more complex network of struggles; then > we have labour and other counter forces, challenging these in an > inter-class struggle. Identity, environmental, and other fields of struggle > intersect and complicate the picture again. > > I think the overall strenghts of the arguments would be stronger without > these leaps, > > > I agree, and again it needs a deeper study, yet I believe such studies are > exist. Just need reading, and specific adaptation to concrete situations; > to make at least a bit better sense of the whole picture. > > Orsan > > Michel > > On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Örsan Şenalp <[email protected]> wrote: > >> The hard evidence for such stuff can come from insiders. May be p2p >> open intelligence guy (Robert Atllee?), or John Robb, or their contact >> in special operation units, or intelligence could give better insight >> about how these things work. In case you have time to go through, such >> evidence is for long is made public by wikileaks. This is one single >> example about Turkey and Gulen: >> https://wikileaks.org/gifiles/docs/37/379052_fw-ct-former-tu >> rk-intel-guy-says-gulen-is-cia-front-in.html >> >> This is Graham Fuller, CIA regional desk director for middle east >> -based in Turkey for long, on Gulen: >> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/graham-e-fuller/gulen-movement >> -not-cult_b_11116858.html >> >> To compare Gulen with the Moon cult: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Myung_Moon >> >> Also please google, or search wikileaks files on Gulen, Vatican, and >> Moon relationships. >> >> But I think anyone can try to develop clearer and informed argument, >> using scattered intelligence on rulers and their global operations. >> >> Which would takes a good article; in the end no one would read, or get >> it, or don't want to get it :) as in Dmytri's article case, articles >> can not change the world. >> >> As for the moment, I can remind and try to compile some of the >> different posts and links I shared in various context, while they were >> all inter-related to me. They were linking, in my mind, or mapping the >> historical inter-related developments of military deception, special >> operation units, organisational science, TNCs and supply chains, >> complex systems management, behavioural social-mass-movement >> management (as in Canvas - Otpor story), and finally today's big data >> based Minerva projects as complementary operations to PRISM and >> others. >> >> Gulen and Moon is extremely important, since they were 'left projects' >> of radical democracy: known as long march through the institutions. >> Rulers, get these left-'radical' reflections and implement them. In 30 >> years, Gulen occupied all high ranks at state institutions; starting >> from armed forces, army and police, and jurisdiction and education. >> Now they have been every where. The guys, both were related to Gladio, >> and were prominent anti-communists; both become global liberal >> religious 'movements'. >> >> May be historically 'liberal' activists, as you see them as part of >> the 'left', as in the US mainstream media and commonsense, Gulen and >> Moon are used for soft-religious movements in Islamic and eastern >> christian worlds. unification Church of Moon, or 'Dialogue' between >> Religions project of Gulen, have been part of surrounding China, and >> Russia since the end of 90s. In a sense, the rock-star left-activism >> of Bob Geldof, Bono, Angelina Jolie, John Cossack, or Matt Damon for >> that matter, is very related to the liberalism of Moon and Gulen. Not >> in terms of radical social system change at all, but liberally >> conserving or managing the complexities of the change process; so that >> any change would not dis-allow 'being' famous, or 'being' millioners >> -in which to them there is nothing wrong; but exactly because of this >> they fell on the 'right' today, instead of 'left'. >> >> I think Peter and you mean well, when you argue, for 'Dialogue', or >> possibilities that are independent from what is being calculated, >> choreographed, executed, or screened, as part of any ruling class >> project or 'plots', as 'UBI' or 'Commmons', or 'Green New Economy', >> neo-keinesianism so on; since nothing can be totally calculated there >> can be positive and unexpected outcomes coming about. I think, no one >> would disagree with this. >> >> Yet, both in your arguments one can not hear about the limitations and >> structural strait-jackets designed and put on such unexpected >> 'anomalies', or dangerous social complexities tried to be manged. I >> would recommend you Pasquinelli's writings on 'systemic anomaly' >> tracing algorithm as a supporting evidence about the size and scope of >> the modern Panopticon; or clashes of Panopticons. I think what is >> thought as power of liberal democracy, in political-philosophical >> sense, also reflects its biggest weakness. In relation to your >> question Michel: 'how and why would CIA fund or back movies that >> destroys its image?' this point is essential to grasp (not sure if you >> watched any of the Bourne or Bond movies): any total or out-come >> message sent by these movies is not serving to destruct the image of >> the CIA, at all. In opposite it provide clearing for first 'liberal >> democracy' in the US (as it remained at all), and then the truly >> patriotic soul-elements within CIA that are constantly treated by >> individual free riders, criminals, wrong doers; and blocked by them to >> serve and save their country. This is not a destruction of the public >> image of the CIA, opposite it is a part of deceptive image-cleaning >> operation, imho. >> >> As, in the scene, where Bourne meets someone appears in a terrorist >> outlook, even darker skin, but who clearly represent Assange, wants to >> expose 'all misdoing and fucked up institutions of the system'; and >> Bourne clearly accuse him by exploiting the informant girl -just >> killed by criminals running the 'agency- and he says he is not on >> 'their side'. Then there is the Google guy, whose owning the Deep >> Dream, which got allowed by criminal aspects in CIA to be billioner, >> and in returned asked to create 'Iron Hand' structure, to be able to >> follow and record all private and public communication. Clearly film >> represents the reality, as the CEO stands with CIA-gang, and good >> guys, like the owner of Google, Bourne, and idealist potentially new >> female candidate for directorship of the agency forms an alliance for >> the future. There is no place to Assange, so he gets killed by Bourne >> after he tries to get the files by killing him. >> >> At a time internal fighting between the almost equally forces of >> liberal and conservative ruling class fractions, such in-fights derail >> the legitimacy of the entire system. Then out of the widening cracks, >> there emerges right wing and fascist alternatives, in the midst of >> increasingly delegitimation of the parlimantair liberal democracy; >> casued by the publication of the darkness of the rulers through their >> countering accuasations via films, media services, news, public >> debates so on so forth. This constitute the weakness of the >> power-balance, that is perceived as 'liberal democracy' to masses. >> When this balance is broken, to a level, and losing control becomes a >> real threat for liberals (as for conservatives) then they call for >> stronger but domesticated 'left' voices, public figures, religious >> cults... so on. Again look at Fuller's and other CIA linked >> intellectuals writings for regional or world politics. To me, Matt >> Damon, Bono, and other left-activists are popularising figures what >> Graham Fuller was wishing more (left movement in Turkey). I would >> argue, this is not a call, this is a talk in operational terms, and >> they make this call globally and in general. >> >> People like Fuller, knows that system without alternative is doomed to >> collapse, and they want to create and manage the emergence of >> left-alternatives. Weather p2p, commons, new economy,.. they want to >> be in charge in the creation of The Next System. >> >> O. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> in >> > > > > -- > Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: > http://commonstransition.org > > P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net > > <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: > http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens > > #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/ > > -- Check out the Commons Transition Plan here at: http://commonstransition.org P2P Foundation: http://p2pfoundation.net - http://blog.p2pfoundation.net <http://lists.ourproject.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/p2p-foundation>Updates: http://twitter.com/mbauwens; http://www.facebook.com/mbauwens #82 on the (En)Rich list: http://enrichlist.org/the-complete-list/
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