Cde Mphahlele: You make a valid point through a citation in the foregoing. However, the same quotation reads "...and a man's colour will be as irrelevant as is the shape of his ears". I infer that your interpretation is that until the Land issue is addressed and the government of the Africans by the Africans is a fait accompli. I am among the millions that are frustrated and infuriated that its until now that the so called liberation of 1994, has not changed the status quo of before 1994. What is poignantly disappointing is that the PAC has not emerged in the hot debates currently taking place within the ANC in the media. The Land issue and distribution of wealth that Malema is harping on are the positions of the PAC. The PAC has let opportunists to steal its historic position. It's a similar thing it did in exile, that is, it failed to counter the propaganda machinery of the ANC. What do we mean by 'the government of the African by the African' ? does this recognise a government of the ANC as a legitimate government of the African People ? if it does, I would say your argument falls short of potency. I know that asking this question holding a bull by its horns. I am saying so chiefly because you argued as per your quotation, that the recognition of other national groups as Africans will take place once a complete independence is a fait accompli. From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mohlomphegi Mphahlele Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2011 3:49 PM To: payco@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: [PAYCO]
Cdr Mduduzi and all other Africanists Race remains as Sobukwe has said a thorny issue. Like you comrade it is really difficult for me to separate an African from a Settler. However I pasted an extract from Sobukwe State of the Nation Campaign and believe it should give us an insight into this whole issue of race. "We will go on, Sons and Daughters of Afrika, until in every shanty, in every bunk in the compounds, in every hut in the deserted villages, in every valley and on every hill top, the cry of African freedom and independence is heard. We will continue until we walk the streets of our land as free men and free women, our heads held high. We will go on until the day dawns when every person who is in Afrika will be African and a man's colour will be as irrelevant as is the shape of his ears. We will go on, steadfastly, relentlessly and determinedly until the cry of "Afrika for the Africans, the Africans for humanity and humanity for God" becomes a reality; until government of the Africans by the Africans for the Africans is a fait accompli". Having read through this extract then the answer will be whites as part of the foreighn possesser and usurpers of our land remains settlers. All whites irrispective of whatever will remain settlers as long as they continue holding on our land that was brutally stolen from Africans. They will remain settlers and not Africans until the day dawn on which our revolutionary mission is complete. To take from the above extract; until government of the Africans by the Africans for the Africans is a fait accompli. I believe that though our leaders appeared more moderate for reconciliation purpose on the issue of settlers the truth remains as Mogabe has put it that "A SETTLER REMAINS A SETTLER". We should stop contradicting our selve thinking for people who care less about us. --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Mduduzi Sibeko <msib...@randwater.co.za> wrote: From: Mduduzi Sibeko <msib...@randwater.co.za> Subject: RE: [PAYCO] To: "payco@googlegroups.com" <payco@googlegroups.com> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 1:45 PM Cde Seroke and Mzu On the issue of race and who was an African this is what Sobukwe said "Politically we stand for government of the Africans for the Africans by the Africans with everybody who owes his only loyalty to Africa and accepts the democratic rule of an African majority, being regarded as an African. We guarantee no minority rights because we are fighting precisely that group-exclusiveness which those who plead for minority rights would like to perpetuate. It is our view that if we have guaranteed individual liberties we have given the highest guarantee necessary and possible. I have said before, and I will still say so now, that I see no reason why, in a free, democratic Africa, a predominantly black electorate should not return a white man to parliament, for colour will count for nothing in a free Africa." During the late eighties and early 90's. I grappled with the problem of harmonizing the concepts of white minority rule, (as it was a common phrase or a cliché that was used in the literature of liberation movements) and what Sobukwe had said about who was an African and our unqualified loathing of minority rights guarantees. Sometimes in 1993, Former president Clarence Makwethu had a meeting with Mr. fw De klerk. According to President Makwethu, F.W said to him. " Mr. Makwethu, can I have a question to you ?". Makwethu said " go ahead" "Who is a settler" asked De Klerk. You see, without a coherent ideological understanding, it would have been difficult for Makwethu to delineate our position in as far as the issue of race and who was an African. however, Mr. Makwethu ,was at times, astute and vibrant in debates. He clarified the position to Mr. De Klerk. The question that you raised about the over- inclusiveness of the definition of African is a problem that I don't think that as an africanist i will address it satisfactorily. We define an African as "everybody who owes his only loyalty to Africa and accepts the democratic rule of an African majority" the questions becomes, what about those that are natives in this country but do not want to accept the democratic rule of the African majority. admittedly, we as africanist are extremely reluctant to regard whites as Africans. The very same tagging them as settlers was ideologically incorrect. I know very well that some of you that have read to this passage may be now beginning to tag me as a liberal. Be what it may be, this is my understanding which may also be ideologically incorrect. The question is, designations such as Settlers, Europeans and others, were they to be used perpetually. What did we mean when we said and venerated Sobukwe's words which read as "in our vocabulary, the word races as applied to man, does not exist, we regard multiracism as racism multiplied" I do not gainsay the indisputable fact that there are whites, who are even to this day, do not want to accept the democratic rule of the majority. Isolating them from the definition of who is an African becomes as difficult as flogging a dead horse to life again. Maybe, the concept of human race was just a simplicity, how is it applied. Let's be honest. Do we regard whites today as Africans ? the question is very difficult for me kind regards Mduduzi Sibeko Admin/finance [cid:image002.jpg@01CA5626.C30DADC0] T +27-11-724-9281 C +27-71-101-2595 F +27-11-900-1929 F 086-754-2176 E msib...@randwater.co.za<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=msib...@randwater.co.za> www.randwater.co.za<http://www.randwater.co.za/> From: payco@googlegroups.com [mailto:payco@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mzu Cabanga Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:59 AM To: payco@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Dear comrade Mduduzi, As a young Afrikan I thank Afrikans like you and Jaki who I can see are still making it their duty to nurture young Afrikans out there unlike some who were in the APLA and are now a disgrace to Pan Afrikanism. Is the definition of an Afrikan that tata Sobukwe still relevant today given the experiences recently? I think I need a bit of a clarity on this as I think it is too inclusive, inclusive of people who wants to be excluded from this category. On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Mduduzi Sibeko <msib...@randwater.co.za<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=msib...@randwater.co.za>> wrote: Dear comrade Mzu: I was not able to respond to your response last week due to some daily chores and work commitments. However, I need to make the following comments. You seem to have a parochial view of our political antecedents. It is a simple thing to blame the ANC and NP for the World Trade Center settlement, and other thing to absolve the blame to the PAC . this, I say, because you indicate that the victory was the ANC'S. The point I wanted to make was that, during the negotiations, the capitalists were much aware of what they were likely to lose in negotiations. Eventually, they sought to safeguard the following * Sunset clause (Power sharing) * Bill of rights ( right to own a property) * TRC ( a means to evade jail for offenders of apartheid) The foregoing list is not exhaustive, however, it is indicative of the fact that whites acted proactively. As I indicated that in any armed conflict, parties in belligerence ought to negotiate the immunity of belligerents. World history in armed conflicts is replete with examples of diplomacy or negotiations after wartime for the protection of the guerrillas. Admittedly, we were inexperienced and myopic of the fact that our fraternal brothers ( ANC) would turn against us. As a result, we are sitting with an challenging problem of having our comrades languishing in prisons in a country they fought to liberate. Unfortunately, to resolve this problem, insurrection can never be an ideal solution, rather constitutional means can be appropriate. However, the so called presidential pardons are invariably taking protracted time. it is very touching that people that fought to liberate us are behind bars. KInd regards Mduduzi Sibeko Admin/finance [cid:image002.jpg@01CA5626.C30DADC0] T +27-11-724-9281 C +27-71-101-2595 F +27-11-900-1929 F 086-754-2176 Email: msib...@randwater.co.za<http://us.mc451.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=msib...@randwater.co.za> URL :www.randwater.co.za<http://www.randwater.co.za/> This email and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential and proprietary information. This information is private and protected by law and, accordingly, if you are not the intended recipient, you are requested to delete this entire communication immediately and are notified that any disclosure, copying or distribution of or taking any action based on this information is prohibited. Emails cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses. 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