Mzu I now undertand that we dont have the same understanding of a settler. A settler cannot be defined by his/her skin colour nor by a continent where he/she is coming from.
--- On Fri, 7/1/11, Mzu Cabanga <[email protected]> wrote: From: Mzu Cabanga <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] To: [email protected] Date: Friday, July 1, 2011, 3:07 PM Eazy , I really do not get your point now and you're confusing a lot of people with such a liberal view. Afrika is one continent and it doesn't matter if we originated in Madagascar or Libya but the fact remains we are Afrikans. The settlers are non-Afrikans and will never be. I do not know then now what informs your conclusion that we are settlers in Afrika.....Did you even read what you sent or you just sent it mAfrika. We should try by all means not to divide Afrika because we are only doing what was started by the settlers in the settlers Berlin Conference. I hope you think carefully in future before riding in the waves of the liberals mAfrika. A white men is a settler (born in Afrika or Europe, Loyal to Afrika or not). We cannot be settlers in Afrika...in Eurpoe yes. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 1:43 PM, eazy mampye <[email protected]> wrote: Cde Ras, I think you misunderstood and blew the whole thing out of proportion. The point one was making was around branding of the people as settlers. I acknowledge that the are people who took other people's land and not only that but also imposed their practices and culture in an attempt to settle as their land. I am therefore saying even us who are currently calling themselves Azanians/South Africans are not originally from here but from up in Africa. therefore the original people and indigenous people could also call us settlers hence they are also engage in the struggle to back what rightfully theirs. Admits this i am saying those things will free us form economic oppression and uplift any of us leaving conditions. let us not adopt a fictitious approach to the subject just shout Africa is for All Africans. if you go to GA Matlala ad tell them that you are an African and their land belongs to you as well i am not sure if you will come back alive. Settler politics has limitations and that precisely my point. My apologies to other Africanist for discussing such petty issues on this platform --- On Fri, 7/1/11, RAS MENELIK AZANIA <[email protected]> wrote: From: RAS MENELIK AZANIA <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PAYCO] To: [email protected] Date: Friday, July 1, 2011, 11:15 AM eazy The historiography that you use is colonial. We are one people as Afrikans. One Afrika One Nation! Izwe Lethu! On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:12 AM, RAS MENELIK AZANIA <[email protected]> wrote: Afrika is one and Afrikans are one people. We are one people. On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 8:40 AM, eazy mampye <[email protected]> wrote: Cde Hlomphi The extract is not saying what you are saying. If you study the Southern African history you will find out that even our selves we are not the people who were originally from this part of the continent. So technically one could say we are also settlers. I think we need out grow such politics and demand socialist workers state, obviously realizing Petty racial politics of our country. Ke shaetsa kere yalo mokgwaga --- On Tue, 6/28/11, Mohlomphegi Mphahlele <[email protected]> wrote: From: Mohlomphegi Mphahlele <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [PAYCO] To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 4:48 PM Cdr Mduduzi and all other Africanists Race remains as Sobukwe has said a thorny issue. Like you comrade it is really difficult for me to separate an African from a Settler. However I pasted an extract from Sobukwe State of the Nation Campaign and believe it should give us an insight into this whole issue of race. "We will go on, Sons and Daughters of Afrika, until in every shanty, in every bunk in the compounds, in every hut in the deserted villages, in every valley and on every hill top, the cry of African freedom and independence is heard. We will continue until we walk the streets of our land as free men and free women, our heads held high. We will go on until the day dawns when every person who is in Afrika will be African and a man's colour will be as irrelevant as is the shape of his ears. We will go on, steadfastly, relentlessly and determinedly until the cry of "Afrika for the Africans, the Africans for humanity and humanity for God" becomes a reality; until government of the Africans by the Africans for the Africans is a fait accompli". Having read through this extract then the answer will be whites as part of the foreighn possesser and usurpers of our land remains settlers. All whites irrispective of whatever will remain settlers as long as they continue holding on our land that was brutally stolen from Africans. They will remain settlers and not Africans until the day dawn on which our revolutionary mission is complete. To take from the above extract; until government of the Africans by the Africans for the Africans is a fait accompli. I believe that though our leaders appeared more moderate for reconciliation purpose on the issue of settlers the truth remains as Mogabe has put it that "A SETTLER REMAINS A SETTLER". We should stop contradicting our selve thinking for people who care less about us. --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Mduduzi Sibeko <[email protected]> wrote: From: Mduduzi Sibeko <[email protected]> Subject: RE: [PAYCO] To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 1:45 PM Cde Seroke and Mzu On the issue of race and who was an African this is what Sobukwe said “Politically we stand for government of the Africans for the Africans by the Africans with everybody who owes his only loyalty to Africa and accepts the democratic rule of an African majority, being regarded as an African. We guarantee no minority rights because we are fighting precisely that group-exclusiveness which those who plead for minority rights would like to perpetuate. It is our view that if we have guaranteed individual liberties we have given the highest guarantee necessary and possible. I have said before, and I will still say so now, that I see no reason why, in a free, democratic Africa, a predominantly black electorate should not return a white man to parliament, for colour will count for nothing in a free Africa.” During the late eighties and early 90’s. I grappled with the problem of harmonizing the concepts of white minority rule, (as it was a common phrase or a cliché that was used in the literature of liberation movements) and what Sobukwe had said about who was an African and our unqualified loathing of minority rights guarantees. Sometimes in 1993, Former president Clarence Makwethu had a meeting with Mr. fw De klerk. According to President Makwethu, F.W said to him. “ Mr. Makwethu, can I have a question to you ?”. Makwethu said “ go ahead” “Who is a settler” asked De Klerk. You see, without a coherent ideological understanding, it would have been difficult for Makwethu to delineate our position in as far as the issue of race and who was an African. however, Mr. Makwethu ,was at times, astute and vibrant in debates. He clarified the position to Mr. De Klerk. The question that you raised about the over- inclusiveness of the definition of African is a problem that I don’t think that as an africanist i will address it satisfactorily. We define an African as “everybody who owes his only loyalty to Africa and accepts the democratic rule of an African majority” the questions becomes, what about those that are natives in this country but do not want to accept the democratic rule of the African majority. admittedly, we as africanist are extremely reluctant to regard whites as Africans. The very same tagging them as settlers was ideologically incorrect. I know very well that some of you that have read to this passage may be now beginning to tag me as a liberal. Be what it may be, this is my understanding which may also be ideologically incorrect. The question is, designations such as Settlers, Europeans and others, were they to be used perpetually. What did we mean when we said and venerated Sobukwe’s words which read as “in our vocabulary, the word races as applied to man, does not exist, we regard multiracism as racism multiplied” I do not gainsay the indisputable fact that there are whites, who are even to this day, do not want to accept the democratic rule of the majority. Isolating them from the definition of who is an African becomes as difficult as flogging a dead horse to life again. Maybe, the concept of human race was just a simplicity, how is it applied. Let’s be honest. Do we regard whites today as Africans ? the question is very difficult for me kind regards Mduduzi Sibeko Admin/finance T +27-11-724-9281 C +27-71-101-2595 F +27-11-900-1929 F 086-754-2176 E [email protected] www.randwater.co.za From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Mzu Cabanga Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 9:59 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PAYCO] Dear comrade Mduduzi, As a young Afrikan I thank Afrikans like you and Jaki who I can see are still making it their duty to nurture young Afrikans out there unlike some who were in the APLA and are now a disgrace to Pan Afrikanism. Is the definition of an Afrikan that tata Sobukwe still relevant today given the experiences recently? I think I need a bit of a clarity on this as I think it is too inclusive, inclusive of people who wants to be excluded from this category. On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 5:41 PM, Mduduzi Sibeko <[email protected]> wrote: Dear comrade Mzu: I was not able to respond to your response last week due to some daily chores and work commitments. However, I need to make the following comments. You seem to have a parochial view of our political antecedents. It is a simple thing to blame the ANC and NP for the World Trade Center settlement, and other thing to absolve the blame to the PAC . this, I say, because you indicate that the victory was the ANC’S. The point I wanted to make was that, during the negotiations, the capitalists were much aware of what they were likely to lose in negotiations. Eventually, they sought to safeguard the following · Sunset clause (Power sharing) · Bill of rights ( right to own a property) · TRC ( a means to evade jail for offenders of apartheid) The foregoing list is not exhaustive, however, it is indicative of the fact that whites acted proactively. As I indicated that in any armed conflict, parties in belligerence ought to negotiate the immunity of belligerents. World history in armed conflicts is replete with examples of diplomacy or negotiations after wartime for the protection of the guerrillas. Admittedly, we were inexperienced and myopic of the fact that our fraternal brothers ( ANC) would turn against us. As a result, we are sitting with an challenging problem of having our comrades languishing in prisons in a country they fought to liberate. Unfortunately, to resolve this problem, insurrection can never be an ideal solution, rather constitutional means can be appropriate. However, the so called presidential pardons are invariably taking protracted time. it is very touching that people that fought to liberate us are behind bars. KInd regards Mduduzi Sibeko Admin/finance T +27-11-724-9281 C +27-71-101-2595 F +27-11-900-1929 F 086-754-2176 Email: [email protected] URL :www.randwater.co.za This email and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential and proprietary information. This information is private and protected by law and, accordingly, if you are not the intended recipient, you are requested to delete this entire communication immediately and are notified that any disclosure, copying or distribution of or taking any action based on this information is prohibited. Emails cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses. The sender does not accept any liability or responsibility for any interception, corruption, destruction, loss, late arrival or incompleteness of or tampering or interference with any of the information contained in this email or for its incorrect delivery or non-delivery for whatsoever reason or for its effect on any electronic device of the recipient. Views and opinions expressed or implied in this email are those of the sender unless clearly stated as being that of Rand Water. If verification of this email or any attachment is required, please request a hard-copy version. -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Thank you Mzulungile Cabanga Alternative Information and Development Centre email [email protected] email [email protected] Fax 0866019876 Tel 021 447 5770 cell 073 073 8789 Skype kleinrich1 "Knowledge is Too important to be Left in the Hands of the Bosses" -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.comThis email and any accompanying attachments may contain confidential and proprietary information. This information is private and protected by law and, accordingly, if you are not the intended recipient, you are requested to delete this entire communication immediately and are notified that any disclosure, copying or distribution of or taking any action based on this information is prohibited. Emails cannot be guaranteed to be secure or free of errors or viruses. The sender does not accept any liability or responsibility for any interception, corruption, destruction, loss, late arrival or incompleteness of or tampering or interference with any of the information contained in this email or for its incorrect delivery or non-delivery for whatsoever reason or for its effect on any electronic device of the recipient. Views and opinions expressed or implied in this email are those of the sender unless clearly stated as being that of Rand Water. If verification of this email or any attachment is required, please request a hard-copy version. -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Thank you Mzulungile Cabanga Alternative Information and Development Centre email [email protected] email [email protected] Fax 0866019876 Tel 021 447 5770 cell 073 073 8789 Skype kleinrich1 "Knowledge is Too important to be Left in the Hands of the Bosses" -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com -- Sending your posting to [email protected] Unsubscribe by sending an email to [email protected] You can also visit http://groups.google.com/group/payco Visit our website at www.mayihlome.wordpress.com
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