John, [Peirce-L] List I found your post below fascinating and informative. May I nit-pick a few points with the aim of seeking to comprehend what exactly you were seeking to convey? I apologise for nit-picking, but the post is so pregnant with meaning that I am keen to reach full understanding of it.
Line 2: ‘That view …’. Do you mean by this the former or latter view or, in other words, the genic- or species-selectionist view? Line 3: Are the ‘holdouts’ the species and/or group selectionists? Who was GCW’s father, and and what was the ‘paradigmatic case of group selection’ which these two ‘showed’, by which I take it you mean ‘made a case for’? Simple ignorance here Para 1 further on: ‘You end up having to invoke groups as filtering units for gene selection in any case’. Should this sentence not read at the very least ‘…invoke species and groups…' Para 2, line 1: ‘Wilson’s way …’. Are you referring here to EOW or to DSW? I am impressed by the case that S J Gould makes - if I understand him well - in ‘The Structure of Evolutionary Theory’ for multilevel selection - of genes, groups of genes no doubt, species, groups, clades. Jeremy > On 30 May 2015, at 8:54 am, John Collier <[email protected]> wrote: > > Jeff, Lists, > > I haven't read this book. Wilson is widely regarded as a genic selectionist > (genes are the units of selection). This doesn't fit the species as > individuals view very well, but it can be made to. That view is held by > almost all systematists now, but there are still some evolutionary theorists > who are holdouts to the classification methodology and data. Others, Like > Richard Dawkins take this view. And others, like David Sloan Wilson, > disagree. The history is a bit complex, with some bizarre generalizations and > misinterpretations of both evolutionary processes. It is supposed that group > selection, for example, was disproved by George C. Williams on theoretical > grounds, but interestingly Williams and his father had earlier shown one of > the paradigmatic cases of group selection. You can make the process of > evolution fit the gene selection account -- there is no logical failing, but > it focuses attention on the wrong causal processes to explain evolution. You > end up having to invoke groups as filtering units for gene selection in any > case. Joel Cracraft was asking at one point "do species do anything?", the > idea being that if they did not, then they were not causal units. They do > indeed do something by constraining evolutionary possibilities through the > constraints they put on what gene combination can be presented for selection. > This is equally, if not more important, than the selection process itself. > (Darwin had a passage to this effect in the 5th edition of The Origin of > Species.) > > So the evidence allows going in a number of directions about the units of > selection, but Wilson's way (if it is indeed his) is a bit more strained than > others, and is not the way that species individuation experts, systematists, > have gone. I should say that there are some holdout systematists, but there > aren't very many. They take a cluster view of species rather than a > constraint view, which would allow species to be epiphenomenal, but would not > imply it. Wilson's view makes them epiphenomenal, if his view is like > Dawkins' view, as I have been assuming here, but not from systematists. I > would say that E.O. Wilson, all evidence I have considered, has always > accepted multilevel selection, and his views have been misrepresented by > himself or others. He is not always that careful about consistency, in my > opinion. > > In any case, I would throw my lot in with the systematists, who are the > experts on identifying species, rather than evolutionary theorists, who have > an annoying habit of giving post facto explanations (abductions without the > follow-up testing). Lewontin and Gould have complained that this > methodological error is rank in the field. I once had an optimality theorist > go in a two sentence circle without even recognizing it, which indicates how > deep seated the idea is that if you can give an account that fits the genic > selection view and optimizes some property you have attributed, then it is a > good explanation; no further testing required. This was a major objection to > Wilson's sociobiology (sometimes justified) and that may be where the idea he > was a genic selectionist came from. > > John > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey Brian Downard [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: May 29, 2015 2:51 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [biosemiotics:8690] Re: self-R > > Hi John, Lists, > > In the The Diversity of Life, E.O. Wilson devotes of few chapters to the > conception of a species. As far as I can tell, he takes the account he is > arguing for to be a mainstream position amongst evolutionary theorists and > ecologists. Is your account consistent the position he articulates, or are > the positions at odds with one another? > > --Jeff > > Jeff Downard > Associate Professor > Department of Philosophy > NAU > (o) 523-8354 > ________________________________________ > From: John Collier [[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2015 9:04 AM > To: Benjamin Udell; [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [biosemiotics:8690] Re: self-R > > Ben, Lists, > > I mean a historical individual with an origin and probably an end, localized > in space. A concrete individual. This is the Hull-Ghiselen view that Is > almost universally accepted by systematists and evolutionary biologists these > days. It follows from the phylogenetic view of species, developed by Cladists > and for which the standard text for a long time was Phylogenetic Systematics > by my friend Ed Wiley. > > John > > From: Benjamin Udell [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: May 27, 2015 2:43 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [biosemiotics:8690] Re: self-R > > > John C., > > Just curious, by an _individual species_ do you mean something like an > individual kind or do you mean (and I suspect that you don't) the species > population as a large, somewhat scattered, collective concrete individual? > > Best, Ben > > On 5/26/2015 2:27 PM, John Collier wrote: > > We mean something different by "individual", Edwina. I am using it in the > sense that species are individuals. It was David HulI who put the ecologists > onto me because of my work on individuality. I don't think that further > discussion with you on this topic is likely to be fruitful for either of us. > > John > > From: Edwina Taborsky > Sent: May 26, 2015 8:23 PM > To: John Collier; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [biosemiotics:8690] Re: self-R > > I don't see an ecosystem as an individual but as a system, in its case, a > CAS. It doesn't have the distinctive boundaries of an individual - either > temporally or spatially. I see a human being as a system, in that its parts > co-operate in a systemic manner; and it is also an individual - with > distinctive temporal and spatial boundaries. But a human being is not a CAS, > for it lacks the wide range of adaptive flexibility and even transformative > capacities of a CAS. > > I have long argued that societies are a CAS; they are socioeconomic > ecological systems, operating as logical adaptations to environmental > realities - which include soil, climate, water, plant and animal typologies > etc. All of these enable a particular size of population to live in the area > and this in turn, leads to a particular method of both economic and political > organization. > > Unfortunately, the major trends in the social sciences have been to almost > completely ignore this area - except within the alienated emotionalism of > AGW or Climate Change...Instead, the social sciences tend to view 'culture' > or 'ideology' as the prime causal factors in societal development and > organization. Whereas I view these areas as emotionalist psychological > explanations, as verbal narratives for the deeper causal factors of ecology, > demographics, economic modes. > > Edwina > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Collier > To: John Collier ; [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2015 1:59 PM > Subject: [PEIRCE-L] RE: [biosemiotics:8690] Re: self-R > > > ----------------------------- > PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON > PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] > . To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message not to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] > with the line "UNSubscribe PEIRCE-L" in the BODY of the message. More at > http://www.cspeirce.com/peirce-l/peirce-l.htm . > > > > Jeremy Evans 3 Rucker St, Northcote Melbourne VIC 3070 Australia
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