Jeff, Gary F. list,

I think one need look no further than to the qualisign for a good example
of a sign which "may not possess all the essential characters of a more
complete sign," and yet be a part of that more complex sign.

Best,

Gary R

[image: Gary Richmond]

*Gary Richmond*
*Philosophy and Critical Thinking*
*Communication Studies*
*LaGuardia College of the City University of New York*
*C 745*
*718 482-5690*

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Jeffrey Brian Downard <
[email protected]> wrote:

> Hello Gary F., List,
>
> In MS 7, Peirce says:  "Secondly, a sign may be complex; and the parts of
> a sign, though they are signs, may not possess all the essential characters
> of a more complete sign."  How should we understand this distinction
> between a sufficiently complete sign and those parts of a sign that are
> less complete?
>
> --Jeff
>
>
>
> Jeffrey Downard
> Associate Professor
> Department of Philosophy
> Northern Arizona University
> (o) 928 523-8354
> ________________________________________
> From: [email protected] [[email protected]]
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 3:54 PM
> To: 'PEIRCE-L'
> Subject: RE: [PEIRCE-L] RE: signs, correlates, and triadic relations
>
> NDTR is an acronym for “Nomenclature and Divisions of Triadic Relations,”
> EP2:289-99, fifth section of the 1903 Syllabus, and the main text this
> thread has been referring to, so far.
>
> Since I included in my post a few quotes from MS 7, which we discussed at
> some length back in the spring of 2014, I’ll post my transcription of the
> manuscript here (from a photocopy of it posted to the list by Vinicius
> Romanini, I think). It’s an interesting text because it prefigures (or
> refigures?) many of the things Peirce says about signs in “New Elements,”
> which follows immediately after NDTR in EP2. The lack of paragraphing is
> Peirce’s.    — gary f.
>
> On the Foundations of Mathematics
> MS 7, c. 1903 [gf transcription, 4 Apr 2014, Peirce's underlining rendered
> as italics]
> §1. Mathematics deals essentially with Signs. All that we know or think is
> so known or thought by signs, and our knowledge itself is a sign. The word
> and idea of a sign is familiar but it is indistinct. Let us endeavor to
> analyze it.
> It is plain at the outset, first, that a sign is not any particular
> replica of it. If one casts one's eye down a printed page, every ‘the’ is
> the same word, and every e the same letter. The exact identity is not
> clear. Secondly, a sign may be complex; and the parts of a sign, though
> they are signs, may not possess all the essential characters of a more
> complete sign. Thirdly, a sign sufficiently complete must be capable of
> determining an interpretant sign, and must be capable of ultimately
> producing real results. For a proposition of metaphysics which could never
> contribute to the determination of conduct would be meaningless jargon. On
> the other hand, the cards which, slipped into a Jacquard loom, cause
> appropriate figures to be woven, may very properly be called signs although
> there is no conscious interpretation of them. If not, it can only be
> because they are not interpreted by signs. In fact, in the present
> condition of philosophy, consciousness seems to be a mere quality of
> feeling which a formal science will do best to leave out of account. But a
> sign only functions as a sign when it is interpreted. It is therefore
> essential that it should be capable of determining an interpretant sign.
> Fourthly, a sign sufficiently complete must in some sense correspond to a
> real object. A sign cannot even be false unless, with some degree of
> definiteness, it specifies the real object of which it is false. That the
> sign itself is not a definite real object has been pointed out under
> “firstly”. It is only represented. Now either it must be that it is one
> thing to really be and another to be represented, or else it must be that
> there is no such thing [a]s falsity. This involves no denial that every
> real thing may be a representation, or sign, but merely that, if so, there
> must be something more in reality than mere representation. Since a
> sufficiently complete sign may be false, and also since it is not any
> replica or collection of replicas, it is not real. But it refers to a real
> object. Consequently, a sign cannot have a sign as its sole object; though
> it may refer to an object through a sign; as if one should say, “Whatever
> the Pope, as such, may declare will be true,” or as a map may be a map of
> itself. But supposing the Pope not to declare anything, does that
> proposition refer to any real object? Yes, to the Pope. But, fifthly, even
> if there were no pope, still, like all other signs sufficiently complete,
> there is a single definite object to which it must refer; namely, to the
> ‘Truth,’ or the Absolute, or the entire Universe of real being. Sixthly, a
> sign may refer, in addition, and specially, to any number of parts of that
> universe. Seventhly, every interpretant of a sign need not refer to all the
> real objects to which the sign itself refers, but must, at least, refer to
> the Truth. Eighthly, an interpretant may refer to an object of its sign in
> an indefinite manner. Thus, given the sign, ‘Enoch was a man, and Enoch was
> translated,’ an interpretant of it would be ‘Some man was translated.’
> Ninethly, a sign may refer to its interpretant in such a way that, in case
> the former sign is incomplete, the interpretant, being an interpretant of
> the completer sign, may refer to a sign to which the first sign does not
> specially refer, but only generally refers. Thus, the sign ‘Any man there
> may be is mortal’ does not refer to any real man, unless it so happens that
> it is a part of a sign which otherwise refers to such a real thing. But if
> it be a part of a sign of which another part is ‘some man sings,’ the sign
> ‘some man is mortal’ becomes an interpretant of it. This may be more
> conveniently expressed by speaking of an ‘utterer’ and an ‘interpreter.’
> Then the utterer says to the interpreter, “you are at liberty to understand
> me as referring to any man [of] whom you can get any indication, and of
> him, I say, ‘he is mortal.’” Tenthly, a sign sufficiently complete must
> signify some quality; and it is no more important to recognize that the
> real object to which a sign refers is not a mere sign than to recognize
> that the quality it signifies is not a mere sign. Take the quality of the
> odor of attar. There is no difficulty in imagining a being whose entire
> consciousness should consist in this alone. But, it may be objected, if it
> were contrasted with nothing could it be recognized? I reply, no; and
> besides, such recognition is excluded by the circumstance that a
> recognition of the smell would not be the pure smell itself. It may be
> doubted by some persons, however, whether the feeling could exist alone.
> They are the persons whom it ought to be easiest for me to convince of my
> point. For they, at least, must admit that if such pure homogeneous quality
> of feeling were to exist alone, it would not be a sign. Everybody ought to
> admit it because it would be alone, and therefore would have no object
> different from itself. Besides, there would be no possible replica of it,
> since each of two such things would be nonexistent for the other; nor could
> there be any third who should compare them. So, then, the whole question of
> whether such a quality is a sign or not resolves itself into the question
> of whether there could be such a tinge upon the consciousness of a being,
> supposing the being could be conscious (for I shall show presently that the
> fact that he would be asleep is only in my favor). In order to decide this
> question, it will be sufficient to look at any object parti-colored in
> bright red and bright blue and to ask oneself a question or two. Would
> there be any possibility of conveying the idea of that red to a person who
> had no feeling nearer to it than that blue? Plainly not, the quality of the
> red is in the red itself. The proximity of the blue heightens the shock
> up[on] the seer[']s organism, emphasizes it, renders it vivid, perhaps
> slightly confuses the feeling. But the red quality is altogether positive
> and would remain if the blue were not there. If every other idea were
> removed, there would be no shock, and there would be sleep. But the quality
> of that sleep would be red, in this sense, that if it were taken away
> frequently and brought back so as to wake the being up, the tinge of his
> consciousness would be of that quality. A quality, in itself, has no being
> at all, it is true. It must be embodied in something that exists. But the
> quality is as it is positively and in itself. That is not true of a sign,
> which exists only by bringing an interpretant to refer to an object. A
> quality, then, is not a sign. Eleventhly, we may assume that this is as
> true of what is, with excusable inaccuracy, called a composite quality as
> of a simple one. In itself, one quality is as simple as another. A person
> who should be acquainted with none but the spectral colors would get no
> idea of white by being told that it was the mixture of them all. One might
> as well tell him to make a mixture of water, patriotism, and the square
> root of minus one. Find a man who has had no idea of patriotism; and if you
> tell him that it is the love of one's country, if he knows what love is,
> and what a man's country, in its social sense, is, he can make the
> experiment of connecting ideas in his imagination, and noting the quality
> of feeling which arises upon this composition. Tell him this in the
> evening, and he will repeat the experiment several times during the night,
> and in the morning he will have a fair idea of what patriotism means. He
> will have performed an experiment analogous to that of mixing colored
> lights in order to get an idea of white. If a treasure is buried in the
> midst of a plain, and there are four signal poles, the place of the
> treasure can be defined by means of ranges, so that a person who can take
> ranges and set up new poles can find the treasure. In like manner the name
> of any color may be defined in terms of four color disks so that a person
> with a color-wheel can experimentally produce the color and thereafter be
> able to use the name. Every definition to be understood must be treated as
> a precept for experimentation. The imagination is an apparatus for such
> experimentation that often answers the purpose, although it often proves
> insufficient. No point on the plain where the treasure is hid is more
> simple than other. Colors may be defined by various systems of coördinates,
> and we do not know that one color is in itself simpler than another. It is
> only in a limited class of cases that we can define a quality as simply a
> mixture of two qualities. In most cases, it is necessary to introduce other
> relations. But even when that is the case, if a quality is defined as being
> at once a and b, there will always be another way of defining it as that
> which is at once c and d. Now all that is either a or c will have a certain
> quality p, common and peculiar to that class; the class of possible objects
> that are b or c will be similarly related to a quality, r; and the class of
> possible objects that are either b or d will be similarly related to a
> quality, s. Then that quality which was defined as, at once, a and b, can
> be more analytically defined as that which is at once p, q, r, and s; and
> so on ad infinitum. We may not be able to make out these qualities; but
> there is reason to believe that any describable class of possible objects
> has some quality common and peculiar to it. It is certain that a pure
> quality, in its mode of being as a pure quality, does not cease to be
> because it is not embodied in anything. Every situation in life appears to
> have its peculiar flavor. This flavor is what it is positively and in
> itself. For the experiment by which it may be reproduced an adequate
> prescription may be given; but the definition will not itself have that
> flavor. To say that a flavor, or pure quality, is composed of two others,
> is simply to say that on experimentally mixing these others in a particular
> way, that first flavor will be reproduced. Every sufficiently complete sign
> determines a sign to the effect that on a certain occasion, that is, in a
> certain object a certain flavor or quality may be observed.
> This attempt to begin an analysis of the nature of a sign may seem to be
> unnecessarily complicated, unnatural, and ill-fitting. To that I reply that
> every man has his own fashion of thinking; and if such is the reader's
> impression let him draw up a statement for himself. If it is sufficiently
> full and accurate, he will find that it differs from mine chiefly in its
> nomenclature and arrangement. [Not unlikely he might insist on distinctions
> which I avoid as irrelevant.] He will find that, in some shape, he is
> brought to recognize the same three radically different elements that I do.
> Namely, he must recognize, first, a mode of being in itself, corresponding
> to my quality; secondly, a mode of being constituted by opposition,
> corresponding to my object; and thirdly, a mode of being of which a
> branching line Y is an analogue, and which is of the general nature of a
> mean function corresponding to the sign.
> §2. Partly in hopes of reconciling the reader to my statement, and partly
> in order to bring out some other points that will be pertinent, I will
> review the matter in another order.
> The reference of a sign to the quality which is its ground, reason, or
> meaning appears most prominently in a kind of sign of which any replica is
> fitted to be a sign by virtue of possessing in itself certain qualities
> which it would equally possess if the interpretant and the object did not
> exist at all. Of course, in such case, the sign could not be a sign; but as
> far as the sign itself went, it would be all that [it] would be with the
> object and interpretant. Such a sign whose significance lies in the
> qualities of its replicas in themselves is an icon, image, analogue, or
> copy. Its object is whatever that resembles it its interpretant takes it to
> be the sign of, and [it is a] sign of that object in proportion as it
> resembles it. An icon cannot be a complete sign; but it is the only sign
> which directly brings the interpretant to close quarters with the meaning;
> and for that reason it is the kind of sign with which the mathematician
> works. For not only are geometrical figures icons, but even algebraical
> arrays of letters have relations analogous to those of the forms they
> represent, although these relations are not altogether iconically
> represented.
> The reference of a sign to its object is brought into special prominence
> in a kind of sign whose fitness to be a sign is due to its being in a real
> reactive relation,—generally, a physical and dynamical relation,—with the
> object. Such a sign I term an index. As an example, take a weather-cock.
> This is a sign of the wind because the wind actively moves it. It faces in
> the very direction from which the wind blows. In so far as it does that, it
> involves an icon. The wind forces it to be an icon. A photograph which is
> compelled by optical laws to be an icon of its object which is before the
> camera is another example. It is in this way that these indices convey
> information. They are propositions. That is they separately indicate their
> objects; the weather-cock because it turns with the wind and is known by
> its interpretant to do so; the photograph for a like reason. If the
> weathercock sticks and fails to turn, or if the camera lens is bad, the one
> or the other will be false. But if this is known to be the case, they sink
> at once to mere icons, at best. It is not essential to an index that it
> should thus involve an icon. Only, if it does not, it will convey no
> information. A cry of “Oh!” may be a direct reaction from a remarkable
> situation. But it will convey, perhaps, no further information. The letters
> in a geometrical figure are good illustrations of pure indices not
> involving any icon, that is they do not force anything to be an icon of
> their object. The cry “Oh!” does to a slight degree; since it has the same
> startling quality as the situation that compells it. The index acts
> compulsively on the interpretant and puts it into a direct and real
> relation with the object, which is necessarily an individual event (or,
> more loosely, a thing) that is hic et nunc, single and definite.
> A third kind of sign, which brings the reference to an interpretant into
> prominence, is one which is fit to be a sign, not at all because of any
> particular analogy with the quality it signifies, nor because it stands in
> any reactive relation with its object, but simply and solely because it
> will be interpreted to be a sign. I call such a sign a symbol. As an
> example of a symbol, Goethe's book on the Theory of Colors will serve. This
> is made up of letters, words, sentences, paragraphs etc.; and the cause of
> its referring to colors and attributing to colors the quality it does is
> that so it is understood by anybody who reads it. It not only determines an
> interpretant, but it shows very explicitly the special determinant, (the
> acceptance of the theory) which it is intended to determine. By virtue of
> thus specially showing its intended interpretant (out of thousands of
> possible interpretants of it) it is an argument. An index may be, in one
> sense, an argument; but not in the sense here meant, that of an
> argumentation. It determines such interpretant as it may, without
> manifesting a special intention of determining a particular interpretant.
> It is a perfection of a symbol, if it does this; but it is not essential to
> a symbol that it should do so. Erase the conclusion of an argumentation and
> it becomes a proposition (usually, a copulative proposition). Erase such a
> part of a proposition that if a proper name were inserted in the blank, or
> if several proper names were inserted in the several blanks, and it becomes
> a rhema, or term. Thus, the following are rhematic:
> Guiteau assassinated ______
> ______ assassinated ______
> Logicians generally would consider it quite wrong for me to call these
> terms; but I shall venture to do so.
>
> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
> Of Sungchul Ji
> Sent: 18-Dec-15 16:22
>
> Gary F, Jeff, List,
>
> Please excuse my ignorance.
> What is NDTR ?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Sung
>
>
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