Jon A, List, You say:
1. "one of the consequences of Triadic Relation Irreducibility (TRI)" is that symbols "are the genus of all signs, while icons and indices are species under that genus." 2. "Thus symbols...do not in the first instance grow from icons so much as icons crystallize from the primordial matrix of symbols." I must admit, that my own understanding of these matters of which is prior to what and in what sense is somewhat vague. Part of my own lack of clarity about the character of genuine and degenerate cases of relations between objects, signs and interpretants its that I don't have a clear grasp of the character of the key relations, including the manner in which one of these is determined by another. What is more, I'm not clear on the relation between involution and evolution when it comes to signs and our understanding of them. Let me ask a couple of quick questions: a. I assume that you are asserting (1) and (2) are the truth of the matter. Are you also asserting that it is Peirce's considered view? b. As a methodological point, are you making metaphysical claims about the real nature of symbols, indexes and icons? Or, do you think the assertion is supported by the semiotic theory taken in independence from the theory of metaphysics? --Jeff Jeffrey Downard Associate Professor Department of Philosophy Northern Arizona University (o) 928 523-8354 ________________________________________ From: Jon Awbrey <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 1:04 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PEIRCE-L] Re: Pragmatic Theory Of Truth John, Jon, Gary, all ... I realize that iconolatry -- just one of many forms of dyadic reductionism -- runs too deep at present for most folks to appreciate this, but it happens to be one of the consequences of Triadic Relation Irreducibility (TRI) that symbols, signs that denote their objects solely by virtue of the fact that they are interpreted to do so, are the genus of all signs, while icons and indices are species under that genus. An icon is an icon only because it is interpreted as an icon, by virtue of some property that is singled out from all the possible properties that it may share with a denoted object. Thus symbols are the fons et origo of all other signs -- they do not in the first instance grow from icons so much as icons crystallize from the primordial matrix of symbols. TRI, TRI Again ... Jon On 3/28/2017 10:21 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Jon Alan, you asked: > > [[ What I was really asking about is the notion that "every kind of sign > begins with an image (icon), and every sign constructed from other signs is a > diagram." Does this come from Peirce, or is it your own insight? ]] > > I wonder if it might come indirectly (with the addition of John’s own > insight) from CP 2.302, c.1895: > > [[[ Symbols grow. They come into being by development out of other signs, > particularly from icons, or from mixed signs partaking of the nature of icons > and symbols. We think only in signs. These mental signs are of mixed nature; > the symbol-parts of them are called concepts. If a man makes a new symbol, it > is by thoughts involving concepts. So it is only out of symbols that a new > symbol can grow. Omne symbolum de symbolo. A symbol, once in being, spreads > among the peoples. In use and in experience, its meaning grows. Such words as > force, law, wealth, marriage, bear for us very different meanings from those > they bore to our barbarous ancestors. The symbol may, with Emerson's sphynx, > say to man, > > Of thine eye I am eyebeam. ]]] > > This antedates Peirce’s detailed classification of sign types other than the > icon/index/symbol trichotomy, but I think there’s a strong connection between > what he refers to as “symbols” here and what John refers to as “diagrams.” > Both words are being used very broadly, and both grow (or ‘are constructed’) > from icons. > > Gary f. > -- inquiry into inquiry: https://inquiryintoinquiry.com/ academia: https://independent.academia.edu/JonAwbrey oeiswiki: https://www.oeis.org/wiki/User:Jon_Awbrey isw: http://intersci.ss.uci.edu/wiki/index.php/JLA facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/JonnyCache
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