Thanks, Daniel Everett - I was indeed referring to the
hunting-gathering economy - using information from such as Richard
Lee [the !Kung], Devore and others who worked in the field. Just as
you say, they do not have the luxury of accommodating people who
cannot participate in the production of sustenance [ie. by
hunting/gathering]. AND - it also depends on the ecological viability
of the land. Since this economy does not 'make' the land produce,
then, they must rely on what the 'natural land' can produce'. And
that land has a critical threshold for population sustenance.
When the societal organization is one where it actively 'makes' the
land produce sustenance - and this is found only in a land base where
this 'interference' is possible and productive - the society can
afford a few more 'non-productive members' but only at a low
threshold. There is simply no economic means to support the huge
numbers of non-productive members that we, in the industrial world,
service. And what we don't realize, is that this industrial mode of
supporting a large percentage of non-productive members of the
population comes at enormous economic price: trillions in debt, and a
reduced productive capacity.
Most of us don't think about economic thresholds and the sustenance
limits of a particular economic method - but, these critical lines
are real, and one of the most important variables, besides the
ecology of the land, is the size of the population. That is, societal
behaviour doesn't all depend on the 'psychological', on the goodwill
[or lack of it] of the human psyche. It also depends on the economy.
Edwina
On Sun 01/10/17 2:12 PM , "Everett, Daniel" [email protected]
sent:
I have spent about 40 years working with hunter-gatherer
populations in the Amazon. I have lived among one group, the
Pirahãs, for an aggregate of eight years and speak their language,
having also written several books and articles about the experience.
My experience matches what Edwina says in (1). They are initially
welcoming. But you must make yourself useful to the community. They
do not have the luxury of accommodating people who cannot carry their
own weight.
Dan
On Oct 1, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Edwina Taborsky wrote:
John, list
That's an interesting set of comments. I certainly agree that
survival alone is impossible but often it's a network of different
species rather than just the members of one species. I've a few
points:
1] I think that 'primitive' bands will only welcome visitors IF
their economic mode is sufficient to support these visitors. That is,
If the visit is short-term, the band might acknowledge this short
stay; but - if the visitor becomes a settler - this is a different
position, for it requires that the current economic method can
support the new person - particularly if he is not productive.
2] Certainly, tribes, which have larger populations than small
population bands, will not necessarily accept anyone other than a
formal short-term visitor; that is, they cannot, economically,
readily support the long-term settlement of migrants, immigrants,
...any increase in their population size.
3] Certainly, war is a key method of reducing the population. But
famine and disease are other 'natural' methods and can be found
repeatedly when a particular economic method is stressed beyond its
capacity to produce sustenance. That is, the local small-scale
farming methods of Europe's medieval period could not sustain
increasing populations and we saw waves of not only wars but also
plagues and disease. Eventually, the technology, the actual method of
food production had to change [larger farming areas, deep plough,
three-field rotation, market exchanges..] - and for technology to
change, the individual must be free to think.
That is - I am suggesting something else is needed beyond your
'cooperation and conservation'.
4]This thinking had to be based in objective empirical observation
- and the basic right and freedom of the individual to doubt, to
question, to explore this objective reality and figure out new
methods of interaction with the envt, new methods of production, new
tools and technology. In that sense, the community has to allow
deviations from the norm, has to allow 'dissent', freedom of
thought, of speech, and the right-to-question and disagree.
Edwina
On Sun 01/10/17 1:15 PM , John F Sowa [email protected] [2] sent:
On 10/1/2017 6:59 AM, Stephen C. Rose wrote:
> The number of values to which all should subscribe is very few
> -- I make them to be tolerance, helpfulness, and democracy in
> the widest sense.
I agree that those values are both important and universal.
But they are complex goals. According to Peirce's insistence
on continuity, they should be derivable from something simpler.
Among humans in "primitive" societies, the natural tendency
is to welcome visitors. And by the way, I put the word
'primitive' in quotes because the so-called primitive societies
developed from 100,000 years of experience by Homo sapiens, who
built on at least 2 million years of genus Homo, who built on
a few billion years of living things.
Fundamental principle of life: Survival alone is impossible.
Free swimming bacteria are extremely vulnerable, but their chances
are immensely better in large colonies. Many plants and animals
develop defensive mechanisms and even poisons. But they limit
the potency to avoid destroying their ecosystems.
The values of tolerance, helpfulness, democracy and other ethical
principles can be derived from the fundamental principle: we need
our friends and neighbors of all species. Even the ones we fear
or despise may have their value for helping some of our friends.
However, there is a struggle for existence, especially when the
resources are limited. That tends to promote the contrary goals
of greed, expulsion of trouble makers, and tribal affiliations
to the exclusion or hostility toward other tribes.
That counter tendency can be addressed in two ways: (1) reduce
population by means of war, or (2) increase resources by means
of cooperation and conservation.
John
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