What's missing in John's comments on the counter rise of greed and related,
and in Edwina and Daniel's responses, are the transformative effects of
agriculture and civilization. The agricultural revolution produces
population explosion systematically, and it has never ended. The advent of
civilization produces shifts toward greater hierarchical organization and
in equality, much harder work time, and other systemic changes.
But the interesting point is that the long-term evolutionary
characteristics John mentions, which include increased social
cooperativeness, remain deeply embedded in the human temperament.
Gene Halton
On Oct 1, 2017 2:25 PM, "Edwina Taborsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks, Daniel Everett - I was indeed referring to the hunting-gathering
> economy - using information from such as Richard Lee [the !Kung], Devore
> and others who worked in the field. Just as you say, they do not have the
> luxury of accommodating people who cannot participate in the production of
> sustenance [ie. by hunting/gathering]. AND - it also depends on the
> ecological viability of the land. Since this economy does not 'make' the
> land produce, then, they must rely on what the 'natural land' can produce'.
> And that land has a critical threshold for population sustenance.
>
> When the societal organization is one where it actively 'makes' the land
> produce sustenance - and this is found only in a land base where this
> 'interference' is possible and productive - the society can afford a few
> more 'non-productive members' but only at a low threshold. There is simply
> no economic means to support the huge numbers of non-productive members
> that we, in the industrial world, service. And what we don't realize, is
> that this industrial mode of supporting a large percentage of
> non-productive members of the population comes at enormous economic price:
> trillions in debt, and a reduced productive capacity.
>
> Most of us don't think about economic thresholds and the sustenance limits
> of a particular economic method - but, these critical lines are real, and
> one of the most important variables, besides the ecology of the land, is
> the size of the population. That is, societal behaviour doesn't all depend
> on the 'psychological', on the goodwill [or lack of it] of the human
> psyche. It also depends on the economy.
>
> Edwina
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun 01/10/17 2:12 PM , "Everett, Daniel" [email protected] sent:
>
> I have spent about 40 years working with hunter-gatherer populations in
> the Amazon. I have lived among one group, the Pirahãs, for an aggregate of
> eight years and speak their language, having also written several books and
> articles about the experience.
>
> My experience matches what Edwina says in (1). They are initially
> welcoming. But you must make yourself useful to the community. They do not
> have the luxury of accommodating people who cannot carry their own weight.
>
> Dan
>
> On Oct 1, 2017, at 1:45 PM, Edwina Taborsky <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> John, list
>
> That's an interesting set of comments. I certainly agree that survival
> alone is impossible but often it's a network of different species rather
> than just the members of one species. I've a few points:
>
> 1] I think that 'primitive' bands will only welcome visitors IF their
> economic mode is sufficient to support these visitors. That is, If the
> visit is short-term, the band might acknowledge this short stay; but - if
> the visitor becomes a settler - this is a different position, for it
> requires that the current economic method can support the new person -
> particularly if he is not productive.
>
> 2] Certainly, tribes, which have larger populations than small population
> bands, will not necessarily accept anyone other than a formal short-term
> visitor; that is, they cannot, economically, readily support the long-term
> settlement of migrants, immigrants, ...any increase in their population
> size.
>
> 3] Certainly, war is a key method of reducing the population. But famine
> and disease are other 'natural' methods and can be found repeatedly when a
> particular economic method is stressed beyond its capacity to produce
> sustenance. That is, the local small-scale farming methods of Europe's
> medieval period could not sustain increasing populations and we saw waves
> of not only wars but also plagues and disease. Eventually, the technology,
> the actual method of food production had to change [larger farming
> areas, deep plough, three-field rotation, market exchanges..] - and for
> technology to change, the individual must be free to think.
>
> That is - I am suggesting something else is needed beyond your
> 'cooperation and conservation'.
>
> 4]This thinking had to be based in objective empirical observation - and
> the basic right and freedom of the individual to doubt, to question, to
> explore this objective reality and figure out new methods of interaction
> with the envt, new methods of production, new tools and technology. In that
> sense, the community has to allow deviations from the norm, has to allow
> 'dissent', freedom of thought, of speech, and the right-to-question and
> disagree.
>
> Edwina
>
>
>
> On Sun 01/10/17 1:15 PM , John F Sowa [email protected] sent:
>
> On 10/1/2017 6:59 AM, Stephen C. Rose wrote:
> > The number of values to which all should subscribe is very few
> > -- I make them to be tolerance, helpfulness, and democracy in
> > the widest sense.
>
> I agree that those values are both important and universal.
> But they are complex goals. According to Peirce's insistence
> on continuity, they should be derivable from something simpler.
>
> Among humans in "primitive" societies, the natural tendency
> is to welcome visitors. And by the way, I put the word
> 'primitive' in quotes because the so-called primitive societies
> developed from 100,000 years of experience by Homo sapiens, who
> built on at least 2 million years of genus Homo, who built on
> a few billion years of living things.
>
> Fundamental principle of life: Survival alone is impossible.
>
> Free swimming bacteria are extremely vulnerable, but their chances
> are immensely better in large colonies. Many plants and animals
> develop defensive mechanisms and even poisons. But they limit
> the potency to avoid destroying their ecosystems.
>
> The values of tolerance, helpfulness, democracy and other ethical
> principles can be derived from the fundamental principle: we need
> our friends and neighbors of all species. Even the ones we fear
> or despise may have their value for helping some of our friends.
>
> However, there is a struggle for existence, especially when the
> resources are limited. That tends to promote the contrary goals
> of greed, expulsion of trouble makers, and tribal affiliations
> to the exclusion or hostility toward other tribes.
>
> That counter tendency can be addressed in two ways: (1) reduce
> population by means of war, or (2) increase resources by means
> of cooperation and conservation.
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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