"Gary Richmond" <gary.richm...@gmail.com>
I would like to suggest the following for consideration and comment.
-
- Genuine triadic relation - Dynamic Object, Sign (Type), Final Interpretant
- Degenerate triadic relation - Dynamic Object, Sign-Replica (Token), Dynamic Interpretant
- Doubly degenerate triadic relation - Immediate Object, Sign-Quality (Tone or Mark), Immediate Interpretant
I have offered the first two characterizations on multiple occasions previously, but the third is a new proposal derived from my recent hypothesis that a Sign-Quality (Tone or Mark) is a character embodied in a Sign-Replica (Token) that facilitates the latter's recognition as an Instance of the Sign (Type). The words "man" and "man" are two different Replicas of the same Sign, and have similar Sign-Qualities because they belong to the same Sign System. The words "man" and "homme" are also two different Replicas of the same Sign, but have different Sign-Qualities because they belong to different Sign Systems.Being internal to a Sign-Replica, a Sign-Quality relates to the Object as represented (IO) and the Interpretant as expressed (II), and does so in a monadic rather than dyadic way--consistent with Peirce's omission of trichotomies for IO-S and S-II in his 1908 taxonomy. As such, a Sign-Quality corresponds to the minimal state of Essential Information--i.e., Sign System Acquaintance, which includes familiarity with non-verbal cues like tone of voice and volume. I still need to think through the implications of this for the definition of the Immediate Object as distinct from the Dynamic Object and all three Interpretants.I am also starting to wonder if we should likewise differentiate (a) the Dynamic Object that permanently relates to the Sign (Type) and Final Interpretant from (b) the Dynamic Object that relates to the Sign-Replica (Token) and Dynamic Interpretant in an individual Instance of the Sign. For our recurring examples of a weathercock and ripples on a lake, perhaps (a) is the direction of the wind in general, in accordance with the laws of nature (i.e., inveterate habits of matter) that govern their behavior at any place and time; while (b) is the direction of the wind here and now, which someone actually interprets them to be indicating.As always, feedback--including well-founded criticism--would be appreciated.
1908 | Letters to Lady Welby | SS 83It is usual and proper to distinguish two Objects of a Sign, the Mediate without, and the Immediate within the Sign. Its Interpretant is all that the Sign conveys: acquaintance with its Object must be gained by collateral experience. The Mediate Object is the Object outside of the Sign; I call it the Dynamoid Object. The Sign must indicate it by a hint; and this hint, or its substance, is the Immediate Object. Each of these two Objects may be said to be capable of either of the three Modalities, though in the case of the Immediate Object, this is not quite literally true.
1908 [c.] | Letters to Lady Welby | MS [R] L463:15As to the Object of a Sign, it is to be observed that the Sign. . .really is determined by its Object. . . the Sign may be said to pose as a representative of its Object, that is, suggests an Idea of the Object which is distinguishable from the Object in its own Being. The former I term the Dynamoid Object (for I want the word “genuine” to express something different); the latter the Immediate Object (a well-established term of logic.) Each of these may have either of the three Modalities of Being, the former in itself, the latter in representation.
1909 | Letters to William James | EP 2:498. . . the Dynamical Object, which, from the nature of things, the Sign cannot express, which it can only indicate and leave the interpreter to find out by collateral experience.
1909 | Letters to William James | EP 2:495As to the Object, that may mean the Object as cognized in the Sign and therefore an Idea, or it may be the Object as it is regardless of any particular aspect of it, the Object in such relations as unlimited and final study would show it to be. The former I call the Immediate Object, the latter the Dynamical Object. For the latter is the Object that Dynamical Science (or what at this day would be called “Objective” science) can investigate.
List:For Peirce, degeneracy has to do with relations. Genuine and degenerate 2ns correspond to the two different kinds of dyadic relations.CSP: This distinction between two kinds of seconds, which is almost involved in the very idea of a second, makes a distinction between two kinds of Secondness; namely, the Secondness of genuine seconds, or matters, which I call genuine Secondness, and the Secondness in which one of the seconds is only a Firstness, which I call degenerate Secondness; so that this Secondness really amounts to nothing but this, that a subject, in its being a second, has a Firstness, or quality. (CP 1.528; 1903)In Aristotelian terms ...CSP: ... there are two sorts of connection which do not involve anything but Matter and Form; namely, the determination of Matter by Form [degenerate], and the blind reaction of Matter with Matter [genuine]. (NEM 4:297; 1904)Likewise, as Edwina pointed out, there are three different kinds of triadic relations (CP 1.365-367). A genuine triadic relation involves dyadic relations, but is not reducible to them; a degenerate triadic relation is reducible to its constituent dyadic relations; and a doubly degenerate triadic relation is qualitative in nature. This is consistent with Peirce's description of Symbols, Indices, and Icons respectively as genuine, degenerate, and doubly degenerate Signs based on the nature of their relations with their Dynamic Objects (EP 2:306-307). With that in mind, I would like to suggest the following for consideration and comment.
- Genuine triadic relation - Dynamic Object, Sign (Type), Final Interpretant
- Degenerate triadic relation - Dynamic Object, Sign-Replica (Token), Dynamic Interpretant
- Doubly degenerate triadic relation - Immediate Object, Sign-Quality (Tone or Mark), Immediate Interpretant
I have offered the first two characterizations on multiple occasions previously, but the third is a new proposal derived from my recent hypothesis that a Sign-Quality (Tone or Mark) is a character embodied in a Sign-Replica (Token) that facilitates the latter's recognition as an Instance of the Sign (Type). The words "man" and "man" are two different Replicas of the same Sign, and have similar Sign-Qualities because they belong to the same Sign System. The words "man" and "homme" are also two different Replicas of the same Sign, but have different Sign-Qualities because they belong to different Sign Systems.Being internal to a Sign-Replica, a Sign-Quality relates to the Object as represented (IO) and the Interpretant as expressed (II), and does so in a monadic rather than dyadic way--consistent with Peirce's omission of trichotomies for IO-S and S-II in his 1908 taxonomy. As such, a Sign-Quality corresponds to the minimal state of Essential Information--i.e., Sign System Acquaintance, which includes familiarity with non-verbal cues like tone of voice and volume. I still need to think through the implications of this for the definition of the Immediate Object as distinct from the Dynamic Object and all three Interpretants.I am also starting to wonder if we should likewise differentiate (a) the Dynamic Object that permanently relates to the Sign (Type) and Final Interpretant from (b) the Dynamic Object that relates to the Sign-Replica (Token) and Dynamic Interpretant in an individual Instance of the Sign. For our recurring examples of a weathercock and ripples on a lake, perhaps (a) is the direction of the wind in general, in accordance with the laws of nature (i.e., inveterate habits of matter) that govern their behavior at any place and time; while (b) is the direction of the wind here and now, which someone actually interprets them to be indicating.As always, feedback--including well-founded criticism--would be appreciated.Regards,Jon Alan Schmidt - Olathe, Kansas, USAProfessional Engineer, Amateur Philosopher, Lutheran LaymanOn Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 3:19 PM, Edwina Taborsky <tabor...@primus.ca> wrote:Helmut, list
Sorry- but I don't see that when Peirce wrote about the degenerate modes, he also used the term 'form'.
He refers to 'two distinct grades of Secondness and three grades of Thirdness' [1.365] And refers to s 'degenerate sort' [1.365]
Edwina
On Thu 23/08/18 3:58 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent:Edwina, List,Yes, but when Peirce wrote about degenerateness, he mostly used the term in combination with "form": "Degenerate form" of something. "Form", I would say, is "class". The sign classes is a classification of compositions. I think the topic of classification versus composition, and their mixed forms, is quite complicated. Here is a quote, I dont remember the website I have got it from, in which Peirce is fighting with the distinction between composition and classification (though Peirce had not read Stanley N. Salthe:)CP Principles of Philosophy, III. Phenomenology, 5. Degenerate Cases, 528:"At the same time, it is an idea of which Firstness, Secondness, and Thirdness are component parts, since the distinction depends on whether the two elements of Firstness and Secondness that are united are so united as to be one or whether they remain two. This distinction between two kinds of seconds, which is almost involved in the very idea of a second, makes a distinction between two kinds of Secondness; namely, the Secondness of genuine seconds, or matters, which I call genuine Secondness, and the Secondness in which one of the seconds is only a Firstness, which I call degenerate Secondness; so that this Secondness really amounts to nothing but this, that a subject, in its being a second, has a Firstness, or quality. It is to be remarked that this distinction arose from attending to extreme cases; and consequently subdivision will be attached to it according to the more or less essential or accidental nature of the genuine or the degenerate Secondness."Best, Helmut23. August 2018 um 20:45 Uhr
"Edwina Taborsky"
wrote:Helmut, list
When I am referring to such terms as genuine Secondness and degenerate Secondness - as I'm sure you know, these are the terms Peirce used to describe these categories. Nothing to do with a natural language understanding of the term 'degenerate'.
Edwina
On Thu 23/08/18 12:16 PM , "Helmut Raulien" h.raul...@gmx.de sent:Edwina, List,you know, one of my favourite topics is that of the distinction between classification and composition (following Stanley N. Salthe). In this respect I have come to the conclusion, that degeneration only is a matter of classification, like in the sign classes (I write classification subcategories with an oblique, and composition subcategories with a dot). In classification the first subcategories are: 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 2/1, 2/2, 2/3, 3/1, 3/2, 3/3. Like the sign classes. But in composition, e.g. S, IO, DO, II, DI, FI, or also in primisense, altersense, medisense, the composition of consciousness, the first subclasses are: 1.1, 2.1, 2.2, 3.1, 3.2, 3.3. Because here it is composition, you cannot speak of degeneracy, is my opinion. Parts are not degenerate, only classes may be. A cogwheel is not a degenerate gearbox, but a mule may be seen as a degenerate rodent, because it cannot see very well.Best,Helmut23. August 2018 um 17:43 Uhr
"Edwina Taborsky"
John, list
Agreed - my point is that the world is more complex than a simple set of two or even three terms. That's why Peirce expanded his categories into their genuine and degenerate modes.
I would think that Peirce's top-level would be Mind [pure Mind, 3-3 which is aspatial and atemporal].
Then, one would move into spatial and temporal existentialities...of rest of the modes [3-2, 3-1, 2-2, 2-1, 1-1]
However - this is an interesting exploration - but, my focus is more on the pragmatic application of Peircean semiosis...ie. what happens when an environmental stress requires a species to adapt its knowledge base and change its mode of existence...
Edwina
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