Helmut, List, HR: . . .wondering, why and how immanence and transcendence are contradictions, I just am having the tentative idea, that they are not. GR: Firstly, I would hold that immanence and transcendence are *not* contradictory. In at least my panentheistic view of the Trinity, transcendence and immanence are complementary aspects of the divine nature. God, the Father represents the transcendent source of all Being, Christ being the immanent Logos, so *God present within creation through His Son.* Together, with the Holy Spirit, they express a God who permeates the universe with life and purpose while also transcending it: so, intimately involved in the ongoing unfolding and evolution of creation (Christ and the Holy spirit working through semiosis and the life of the Spirit), yet never confined to it (God the Father).
HR: My idea is, that Peirce-categorially: -- Immanence is 1ns -- Inherence is 2ns -- Transcendence is 3ns. While I'm still thinking this through categorially, I am rather certain that the categories do not apply strictly panentheistically, and not as you've outlined them. Firstly, I don't see why 'inherence' factors here at all. So please explain what you mean by that term. My own view, at least to date, is that following my interpretation of the Blackboard analogy in Peirce's 1898 lecture series, the First Person of the Trinity, God the Father, represents a kind of ur-Continuity, so an ur-3ns involving (in Peirce's sense of categorial involution) both 2ns and 1ns, and this 'before' the creation of a cosmos, thus, strictly in the Mind of God. God, in this sense, transcends the creation of the universe, and will forever transcend the universe in one profound sense. However, once a cosmos is brought into being (for theists, is created) -- that is, *begins* to *exist* as such -- the three categories take on their familiar semeiotic roles working together to evolve a cosmos. From my non-traditional Trinitarian perspective, the Second Person of the Trinity, Christ, the Son (*always* with the Father through eternity) and with the Third Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit (*always* with the Father through eternity), work to evolve and, *with the Father*, sustain the universe. We know the Father through the Son via the Holy Spirit: Emmanuel (God with us). Best, Gary R On Sun, Sep 22, 2024 at 2:57 PM Helmut Raulien <[email protected]> wrote: > > Gary, List, > > by wondering, why and how immanence and transcendence are contradictions, > I just am having the tentative idea, that they are not. My idea is, that > Peirce-categorially: > > -- Immanence is 1ns > -- Inherence is 2ns > -- Transcendence is 3ns. > > A just-so-idea. Another point I am wondering about, is, that > "transcendent" and "transcendental" have quite different meanings. The > transcendent (God, freedom, eternal life...) is a matter of belief, but the > transcendental is the conditions for the possibility of knowledge, so a > matter of knowledge. If knowledge isn´t something, you have to believe in, > that is. > > Best regards, Helmut > > > 22. September 2024 um 20:24 Uhr > *Von:* "Gary Richmond" <[email protected]> > > List, > > Jerry Chandler wrote: " I find it problematic to address any aspects of > the concepts of the infinite without weighting the writings of A. N. > Whitehead and Teilhard DeCardin." > > I would tend to agree. Regarding the two areas I've recently been > discussing here, namely, panentheism and the Cosmic Christ idea, Whitehead > contributed to panentheism by offering a vision of a God as immanently > involved in the evolving world, while Teilhard de Chardin contributed > both to panentheism and the Cosmic Christ idea by envisioning Christ as > the force driving the universe toward unity with the divine. Together, they > do indeed offer valuable perspectives on the relationship between God, > creation, and the ultimate destiny of the cosmos. So thanks, Jerry, for > reminding me of their importance. > > Specifically, Whitehead, in developing the metaphysical framework of " > Process Philosophy," set the foundation for "Process Theology" which is > one form of panentheism. In Whitehead's view, God is not a distant, > immutable being but is deeply involved with the world, both immanent and > transcendent. For Whitehead God is seen as having two "natures": the > *primordial* nature, which is timeless and transcendent, and the > *consequent* nature, which evolves with the world. In my Trinitarian > thinking, God's primordial nature is the First Person of the Trinity (God > the Father), while His consequent nature is symbolized by The Second and > Third Persons (Christ and the Holy Spirit). > Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest and paleontologist, provided a > unique Christian interpretation of evolution for which he was criticized by > the Holy See. He resolved it to some extent by reaffirming *both* the > Church's authority *and* his evolutionary ideas: > > The Catholic Church. . . must not simply seek to affirm its primacy and > authority but quite simply to present the world with the Universal Christ, > Christ in human-cosmic dimension, as the animator of evolution (In a letter > to Auguste Valensin, Teilhard de Chardin, Pierre (1948). "My Fundamental > Vision". *XI*: 191–192). > > > For Chardin, evolution is seen as a divine process moving towards an > ultimate fulfillment, symbolized by, exactly, the Cosmic Christ. He > famously developed the idea of Christ as the* Omega Point*, the > culmination of evolution. For him Christ is the unifying force that draws > all creation toward union with God, which permeates all of created reality > and connects all things. His vision of God’s immanence sees the divine at > work within the processes of evolution, and his understanding that matter > and spirit are not opposed but integrally connected has similarities both > to Peirce theory and supporting a panentheistic worldview. For him > Christ is not just the final goal, but is present and active throughout > creation, the divine continually incarnating and guiding creation toward > its ultimate fulfillment. > > > So, Whitehead and Teilhard de Chardin both see the universe as an ongoing, > dynamic process that is intimately related to the divine, God both immanent > and transcendent, a view of divinity that is involved in the ongoing life > of the universe but not limited to it. And both shared a vision of the > world as unfinished: Creation is constantly unfolding, and God (Christ for > de Chardin) is intimately involved in that process, participating in the > evolution of the universe without being identical to it. Teilhard's vision > of Christ as the Omega Point and Whitehead’s idea of God integrating all > that is and happens, suggest that all of creation is interconnected, this > unity viewed as a reflection of the divine presence in an evolving cosmos. > > It is true that Whitehead comes from a more abstract, metaphysical > perspective, while Teilhard de Chardin operates within a Christian one (but > also a scientifically informed one), so that Teilhard specifically > integrates Christology into his view, while Whitehead’s vision is not tied > to any religious figure. So one might say that de Chardin’s contribution is > more directly related to the concept of the Cosmic Christ. > > In sum: Whitehead contributes to panentheism by offering a vision of a God > who is immanently involved in the evolving world, while Teilhard > contributes to both panentheism and the Cosmic Christ idea by envisioning > Christ as the force driving the universe toward unity with the divine. One > might say that they offer intriguing, somewhat different perspectives on > the relationship between God, creation, and the ultimate destiny of the > cosmos. > > See: Teilhard de Chardin, Pierre. *The Phenomenon of Man*. Harper > Perennial, 1955 and Whitehead, Alfred North. *Process and Reality*. > Macmillan Publishing, 1929. > > Any thoughts on this are, of course, very welcome. > > Best, > > Gary R > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2024 at 9:35 PM Jerry LR Chandler < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> List: >> >> >> On Sep 18, 2024, at 6:50 PM, Gary Richmond <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> I should preface these comments by noting that I consider panentheism to >> be at present an underdeveloped concept. So, for example, my understanding >> of it is none of the three versions which Jon outlined (including >> Soteriological >> panentheism) which he considers my 'version' to be. I would hope that there >> are some here who might be interested in further developing a 21st century >> version of panentheism, >> >> >> Although my interest in Uni…. has waned in recent decades, I find it >> problematic to address any aspects of the concepts of the infinite without >> weighting the writings of A. N. Whitehead and Teilhard DeCardin. >> >> Jon’s notion that the notions of “theism” and “panentheism” are mutually >> exclusive notions is truly a remarkable contribution to theological >> basics. >> >> Cheers >> Jerry >> > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at > https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . > It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L > subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to > this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► To > UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] > with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in > the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► > PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and > co-managed by him and Ben Udell. >
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ARISBE: THE PEIRCE GATEWAY is now at https://cspeirce.com and, just as well, at https://www.cspeirce.com . It'll take a while to repair / update all the links! ► PEIRCE-L subscribers: Click on "Reply List" or "Reply All" to REPLY ON PEIRCE-L to this message. PEIRCE-L posts should go to [email protected] . ► To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message NOT to PEIRCE-L but to [email protected] with UNSUBSCRIBE PEIRCE-L in the SUBJECT LINE of the message and nothing in the body. More at https://list.iupui.edu/sympa/help/user-signoff.html . ► PEIRCE-L is owned by THE PEIRCE GROUP; moderated by Gary Richmond; and co-managed by him and Ben Udell.
