Blender indeed has its own GUI called "Ghost API" which is OpenGL 1 based in order to work even with very old GPUs.
Yeap I agree with your post 100% this is why I said I love Pharo and I prefer it over any other language I have coded in. I can certainly understand your frustration with Java . I also envy you that you can use Pharo to make a living maybe I can do that one day too :) I also agree there is no such thing as silver bullet. It also depends on what you want. For example I could port Blender source base as a library to pharo with NB bindings but that would be a massive amount of work and not the same as just making small contributions to Blender. I think in the end, whether you like a programming language or not you have to be realistic about your goals and what you ask from the language. I tried to fit Pharo into my workflow but just it does not fit. The good news is that at least I will be avoiding C++ for now as the part I am most interested in Blender, sculpting is coded in C. But I dont give up on pharo just yet completely, I just said it wont be anymore my main platform. I see no reason why I should not contribute a few bug fixes or enhancements to pharo per year. I would also like to finish porting the 5th chapter of PBE to Pharo 3 at some point. So no worries I will be around, just much less active :) And will definetly follow the mailing list with great interest :) On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:24 AM, p...@highoctane.be <p...@highoctane.be> wrote: > FWIW, Blender has its own UI toolkit. So, they designed their own thing. > > http://3dicc.com/ 's Terf runs on Cog + internal additions. I guess it > shows that things can be done nicely when it comes to UIs. > > As for Java and UI toolkits, I've been programming in Swing very > extensively at one point. Well, as always, when you get into something very > specific, you dig into the code and see that the designers of Swing also > ran into issues and under the cover, things aren't so neat and debugging > event bubbling in these things (where then, there is suddenly *zero* doc) > is much harder with Java than with Pharo. UI is always a can of worms. Look > at all the moves from Microsoft with WinForms, Silverlight, WPF, ModernUI, > and what else... > > I've done tons of Java and Java EE. Heck, I paid my bills for years doing > that, including teaching other people on how to use it properly. Know what? > I am now sick of Java. When can we focus on the real problem and not all of > the scaffholding? Java is okay, Java has lots of APIs, Java covers a lot of > ground. But I just can't stand its ways of writing 20x more code than > needed. > > Pharo is fresh air. One can actually understand what's going on and not > merely call APIs around without understanding what's going on inside. Is it > frustrating at time, hell yes. But do I end up with better skill after > that? You bet! > > And as for C and C++ for 3D graphics, coders do use premade engines these > days, like Unreal, OGRE, or, Urho3D http://urho3d.github.io/about.html. > That last one you can script ( > http://urho3d.github.io/documentation/HEAD/_scripting.html). > > Whatever the choice or the path, it seems that massive work is needed to > get something that works semi-decently out of the door. There is no silver > bullet... > > I wish you find what you are looking for. > All the best, > Phil > > > > > On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 11:29 PM, kilon alios <kilon.al...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> I don't plan to do anything complicated with C++ just contribute bug >> fixes to blender and maybe add a few features here and there. Definetly not >> implementing a Smalltalk into it :D I am also interesting in improving my >> mathematical knowledge about 3d graphics. I am foremost a 3d artist, but I >> like the idea of customising my own tools. I would not design anything from >> scratch since there are already tons of open source projects. Designing my >> own Smalltalk is out of the question, I prefer small projects easy to do >> and realistic / practical. >> >> Yeap I am aware of FP and Lazarus , I may play around them too but I >> will be facing the same problem I face with Pharo since they are not much >> popular either and has nothing that can compete with Blender for 3d >> graphics. I am not interested in commrecial Smalltalks from what I have >> seen Pharo looks better, maybe they have bigger libraries a bit more docs, >> but I dont think it would make much of a difference. >> >> If you are serious about coding 3d and 2d graphics , in the end knowning >> C/C++ is a big plus since most of development happens in those languages. >> >> I never said Smalltalk or Pharo is the wrong language for what I want to >> do , it was always a matter of tools and libraries. >> >> I may do something crazy like create a parser from Pharo to C++ , I think >> that would be interesting and would allow me to use Pharo for coding >> Blender source. Not a complete parser just something simple that can turn >> basic pharo syntax to C++ syntax. I would definitely being interested in >> something like this. I think Slang already does that so I may look at it >> and do maybe a few modifications here and there . >> >> I wonder if there are other parsers for Pharo to C++ , maybe a >> pettitparser template ? >> >> I would love to keep using Pharo syntax and the IDE and even keep >> contributing to it if it could generate C++ code. Actually thank you for >> reminding me about Slang :) >> >> On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:11 AM, vfclists . <vfcli...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 14 September 2014 18:54, kilon alios <kilon.al...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> yes JAVA Swing comes with animation abilities , maybe you mean >>>> something more than that >>>> >>>> http://youtu.be/I3usNR8JrEE?t=7m41s >>>> >>>> before JAVA FX , Java had and still has Java2D. >>>> but I am no big fan of Java anyway. >>>> >>>> Dont know what it means by "ahead of its time" but back in 1998 I was >>>> coding in Delphi 1996 with a rock solid and very powerful GUI API. Delphi >>>> was an extremely powerful IDE , even more powerful than Pharo and stil is, >>>> with very mature and well documented libraries. >>>> >>>> Also if we talk about transparency animation this dates back to my days >>>> coding in DOS and C++. >>>> >>>> QT is awesome from what I see and people I ask generally have a very >>>> positive opinion about it, certainly something I may learn but my decision >>>> to swift focus from Pharo to C/C++ is not just because I having hard time >>>> coding the things I want in Pharo, its also because it makes more sense for >>>> me to contribute to Blender since my biggest interest is 3d art and blender >>>> is what I use. So re-learning C/C++ will give me full access to Blender >>>> internals which has a lot more potential for me. But yeah most likely I >>>> will learn QT and OpenGL. Its also cool that QT also supports mobile >>>> devices and even web apps. Also QML allows for live coding. >>>> >>>> I assume by 2-4 you mean full time developers. I don't know , >>>> personally I think you need more people because GUI APIs are a pain to >>>> maintain across platforms since OS define their own libraries and support. >>>> >>>> Yeap I definitely agree that Pharo needs more people using it, the >>>> problem however is that unpopularity is a vicious circle. You don't have >>>> much documentation and mature libraries because of small community and not >>>> much more new people come because you don't have much documentation and >>>> mature libraries. The problem also is fragmentation each one wants to try >>>> his own ideas and rightly so they may not be interesting in contributing to >>>> existing libraries, etc etc. These problems are common for languages. But >>>> Pharo can only get better since its in capable hands and passionate people. >>>> I have saw Pharo only improve the past year I have been using it regularly >>>> (in my free time , part time) and the community is helpful and kind if you >>>> exclude a couple of incidents here and there . >>>> >>>> About the web technology, personally I find he web is a big can of >>>> worms but a necessary evil, I always said that building pharo on top of >>>> amber would make more sense and would lift a great burden from the >>>> development of pharo. Sure pharo would inherit the problems of the web >>>> technologies and limitations but also its strengths and power and >>>> flexibility and pharo would not need to play this game of cat and mouse >>>> with other programming languages. It would at least solve the GUI API >>>> problem for Pharo and it would be a matter of mapping Spec on top of >>>> existing well documented and well tested and very powerful / flexible web >>>> technologies. >>>> >>>> But thats up to the Pharo community , my opinion is not fact and my >>>> personal choice is not the choice of other people. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> There is a saying that if you want something done, right you've got to >>> do it yourself, and this means working harder at it. Stuff like that get's >>> easier with the passage of time, but time is what you don't seem to have >>> and you may not have enough collaborators in your project. >>> >>> Seeing as you mentioned Delphi, you might consider the >>> FreePascal/Lazarus combination and consider building a Smalltalk on top if >>> it as you need a combination which gives the ease of an interpreter and >>> live coding, together with the facility to get down to the metal when you >>> need it. It also has the benefit of being crossplatform. C++ is really an >>> insane language to attempt to do something like that in. The newer >>> languages like Nimrod and Julia may be better, but they don't have the rich >>> library set you need. >>> >>> I've always felt that the design of Smalltalk/X offers a better >>> foundation for the type of stuff you want to accomplish so long as you are >>> willing to meet the conditions for using it for defense related and biotech >>> purposes. You will find the going tough as even Jan Vrany is not working on >>> it much. >>> >>> All in all I would say Smalltalk is the right language for what you want >>> to do, it is just that the free versions available don't match your exact >>> needs, both in terms of libraries and level of mass adoption. >>> >>> -- >>> Frank Church >>> >>> ======================= >>> http://devblog.brahmancreations.com >>> >> >> >
