Nevin, If one wants to dominate the Smalltalk market, then write a Smalltalk, and a good one.
Croquet, IMHO, is missing the mark by being a 3D system first, second, and maybe third, and further into MHO, missing the opportunity to provide a retained mode 3D graphic engine. Note that I am not saying there is anything wrong with the product as delivered, but it could be a great deal more useful to a wide range of users if a few layers were identified and exposed/marketed as useful systems. I also think Tweak is a bad design idea; never do to the language what you can do with/in the language. I see it as a logical extension of inheritance vs. composition; the former is easily over-used when the latter applies, and I see Tweak as a similar trap. To date, I think Pharo is the most likely Squeak fork to result in a good Smalltalk. That is because the process is open, includes just enough iron fist control to make decisions as needed, and because making a good Smalltalk _that people can use as they see fit_ is the stated objective. Bill -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Stéphane Ducasse Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 4:32 AM To: [email protected] Cc: Pharo Development Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] Squeak Forks Popularity & Trends Estimate Hi nevin our goal is not predominancy :) It was never. I would be happy that squeak offers a really good multimedia platform. Our goal is to deliver good open source smalltalk. Our goal is to get agile, rethink the system, use good software engineering practices (systematic smallLnt rules), tests.... We want to propose/accept/evaluate new solutions: first class package, first class instance variables, better refactoring support, may be modules, security, new compiler.... Smalltalk deserves a clean and powerful implementation and we will work on that hard. Stef PS: you can forward this answer to squeak-dev if you feel the need. On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:17 AM, Nevin Pratt wrote: > There's no right or wrong answer to the following three questions. > And, > every response is meaningful, because it helps reveal the general > sense of direction that the community is feeling. > > *********************** > Question #1: Of the various Squeak forks (such as Croquet, Pharo, > etc.), what is your feeling of their relative popularities at this > point in time, and how does that compare with the current popularity > of the base Squeak distribution? > > Question #2: This is related to the above-- what is your feeling of > the relative popularity *trend* of each of the forks, and how does > that compare with your feeling of the *trend* of the future popularity > of the base Squeak distribution? > > Question #3: What is your justification for your answers to the above > two questions? > ************************ > > I'll begin with my own answers... > > ...I'm beginning to feel like the Pharo fork currently now has maybe > 50% or more of the popularity of the base Squeak distro, and I'm > beginning to feel like Pharo is headed to become the dominant > distribution in the future, surpassing the original Squeak distro. > And I base that feeling on several observations: > > 1. The email traffic comparison on the "Pharo-project" email list > compared to the email traffic on "The general-purpose Squeak > developers list", and the observed trend in such traffic. > > 2. The number of developers posting on the Pharo-project email list. > > 3. The specific developers posting on the Pharo-project email list > (known Squeakers who have contributed heavily to Squeak in the past). > > 4. The fact that Seaside development has moved to Pharo. > > At one time I wondered if Croquet would become the dominant Squeak > fork, for the simple reason that it had a business organization > "officially" > supporting it, similar to what Squeak had in the Disney days. But now > I think I would bet my money on Pharo. > > What do you think? And why? > > Also, remember, there's certainly nothing wrong with several > "dominant" > forks existing. But of those, one of them will still be the most > popular overall. And I'm curious about thoughts of which one that is, > and which one that will become, and why you think so. > > Nevin > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [email protected] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [email protected] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
