Larry,
Please do not partially quote me. Your partial quote of my words creates a
much different connotation than what was stated, which based on your
follow-up comment was obviously the intent. The complete thought, which
should have included "really shouldn't be happening, in this case, because
PSR-8 shouldn't exist", and carries more meaning that what you decided to
draw focus to.
I agree Paul's commentary is stress causing, and have privately
communicated such with him, and hope he continues down a more constructive
path which has been evident in other threads. However, I also agree regular
monitoring (not to be confused with stalking and harassment) of the
secretaries is warranted and necessary. (Regardless of the number of
incidences someone "decides" to consider actual over-stepping.)
Also, while I agree Paul's communication is edgy, I thing your verbal
attacks on him ("Paul's repeated paranoid delusions", "demanding that they
somehow bow to his account", "open hypocrite", "harassment campaign") are
also as bad. Everybody needs to keep it professional and respectful (as
displayed by Samantha earlier in this thread). Two wrongs do not make a
right. Openly attacking someone with verbal rhetoric is not warranted
simply because we feel they are doing something wrong.
Regards,
Adam Culp
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 8:56:20 AM UTC-4, Larry Garfield wrote:
>
> Fellow FIG list members, we have been trolled.
>
> PSR-8 is a non-issue, non-entity, with no activity. It was an April Fools
> joke cum running gag, in which Paul was an active participant as Sponsor.
> Why did Paul bring it up right now? Of all times? And with an obviously
> baiting subject line? It's not at all possible that it has something to
> with the Editor of PSR-8 being me, and Paul and I being the strongest
> voices on each side on FIG 3? Even though Paul was until a few days ago
> the Sponsor for PSR-8, meaning he was "in on the joke" from the beginning?
>
> No, that couldn't possibly be the reason. Not in the least.
>
> That there is no way to withdraw/abandon a PSR right now isn't even a
> question. A simple look at the bylaws will tell you that, and Paul was at
> the meeting at ZendCon last year where we discussed that. We even wrote up
> a proposed abandonment process in the same writeup that included the
> initial secretaries proposal. You can find that here, towards the end:
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/php-fig/pxezV88Uk1I/eW3GvtPRCgAJ
>
> That never turned into a bylaw, so no, there's no current PSR abandonment
> process. The Secretaries apparently looked at each other at some point and
> went "yep, there isn't." This hardly requires a public vote; it's
> acknowledging what was already public knowledge, written up on the list,
> and discussed at the ZendCon meeting.
>
> FIG 3 included an abandonment process based on that discussion. (I
> believe the time-frames are a bit different, but it's the same spirit.)
> While working on FIG 3, Michael and I noticed that the odds of PSR-8 being
> able to field a 5 person working group and show activity every few months
> were small, so it would almost certainly get abandoned automatically. We
> basically said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
>
> That doesn't mean we should have a vote for something the bylaws don't
> currently allow for anyway. And no, as Editor of PSR-8 I do not support
> such a vote.
>
> Adam, the "tone" to which you refer is Paul's repeated paranoid delusions
> that the Secretaries have formed some sort of cabal to steal power from
> voting reps such as himself. It's been a refrain of his since May and the
> Pixie vote (where the secretaries did goof and corrected themselves and
> apologized within hours), and as far as this voting representative sees it
> constitutes continual ongoing harassment. The secretaries, and Michael in
> particular, can barely breathe without Paul demanding that they somehow bow
> to his account. And now they're not "Secretaries" (their proper title),
> but "secretarial assistants", a verbal demotion that serves no purpose
> other than to further undermine them.
>
> "This silly discussion of whether the secretaries over-stepped again", as
> you describe it, exists precisely because the person who is so fond of
> declaring there's too much "drama", and that a serious bylaws proposal to
> adapt FIG to modern reality constitutes "drama", himself has made a habit
> of causing "drama" every time the secretaries do, well, anything other than
> merge a PR. No, the secretaries didn't "over-step" here, because they
> didn't do anything at all! This is a 100% manufactured non-issue that
> itself serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever except to cause more
> discord, strife, and heartburn from an open hypocrite.
>
> If anything, Michael and Samantha have been saintly in their restraint in
> the face of this harassment campaign.
>
> This entire thread, and the would-be "pre-vote" thread, is pure noise
> serving no purpose whatsoever other than to troll the rest of the list,
> create strife, and goad Paul's opponents into saying something he can
> pounce on. Again.
>
> If you want to know why people are getting fed up with FIG of late, this
> thread is exhibit A.
>
> --Larry Garfield
>
> On 09/11/2016 09:05 AM, Adam Culp wrote:
>
> Samantha,
>
> I think you and Michael are applying a certain "tone", and taking offense,
> with Paul's question of whether the group was aware and involved in what
> could have been a decision making discussion, or if it was only the
> secretaries. This is a voting members right to ask. Paul, and others, have
> made it clear that secretary actions should be monitored, based on past
> incidences. Not only should secretaries properly moderate this list, as
> their duty, but members should also moderate the secretaries to ensure they
> do not overstep again.
>
> While I do feel the PSR-8 discussion should have been posted to a broader
> audience I do not feel it was necessarily handled inappropriately this
> time, because no actual decisions were imposed. So let's move on, unless
> someone feels it should continue for some reason.
>
> All,
>
> This silly discussion of whether the secretaries over-stepped again really
> shouldn't be happening, in this case, because PSR-8 shouldn't exist. The
> topic of PSR-8 has come up many times over the past couple years. It was
> cute, but we need to move on. We should be able to shrug it off as the joke
> it was. Let's stop applying the rules of "serious" PSRs to such a thing and
> get rid of it.
>
> Regards,
> Adam
>
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 9:42:52 PM UTC-4, Samantha Quiñones
> wrote:
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> I already talked about this in the other thread. Continually antagonizing
>> Michael is not an appropriate way of addressing whatever issues you may
>> have with the way he conducts himself as a secretary of this organization.
>> Likewise, attempting to press your definition of our role as secretaries by
>> repeating it ad nauseum is not an appropriate way of addressing your
>> disagreement with how it has been described and executed. You are a voting
>> member of this organization and you are free to bring these matters up for
>> a discussion and vote as you see fit. What you cannot do is abuse this
>> mailing list, and your colleagues in the organization, to drive a personal
>> agenda. It shouldn't be necessary for the secretaries to moderate your
>> messages to this group.
>>
>> Please stop.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Samantha
>>
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