This thread is long since dead. Your points are respectfully taken by all of
us, but I for one believe you are missing a fundamental point. That in mind,
I've prepared a list of ubiquitous tools in use today. These tools are not
backed by big marketing budgets or Microsoft or anything of the like. Some
are represented in trade shows. Some don't say a word. Some have done crazy
things like you have suggested we do, like contests. Some are old, some are
relatively new. The only common thread they have is their success. Some went
down a road similar to what you've suggested. Some have gone down long
roads, some short. Many of the names you will see here today enjoy the
backing of corporations who have built their existence around the survival
(and thriving) of a technology which they did not create and do not own.


I hope you will consider the point I'm making here and leave this thread to
the winds. And for what it's worth, in passing, the reason PHP-GTK is not
mentioned when presenting PHP is that it isn't relevant. You won't win
hearts by dazzling them with irrelevant features. PHP-GTK is a great
project, but the world is slowly being captivated by the power of its web
capabilities, not buttons.



Cristopher Daniluk
President & CEO
direct: 330/530-2373

Digital Services Network, Inc
Unleashing Your Potential
voice: 800/845-4822

-----Original Message-----
From: Manuel Lemos [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] The future of PHP

Hello Zeev,

Zeev Suraski wrote:
> Manuel,
> I started answering your letter point by point, but stopped, as it
> have gotten us anywhere.
> I'm sorry if sharing my (IMHO very realistic) estimate of the PHP world
> seemed like an insult to you or anybody else.  Not everything that is done

You don't have to be sorry. It is your point of view. You don't have to
agree. I don't feel insulted. I don't take difference of points of view
personally, if they are just that.

> in the PHP world is of good quality.  PHP and the various services around
> it are not magical, and are not free of flaws.  It would be scary if it
> was.  I basically said it out loud.  Do I appreciate each and every effort
> made to improve PHP and the community around it?  Definitely.  Is
> everything that's done perfect?  No.  Some of the efforts are young, and
> will mature.  Some are just not that good.  Many are great.  I'm sorry you
> fail to understand that this is a tricky business and not black&white, and
> try to show my points in a very negative light.  Talking in theoretical
> terms is much easier than trying to work with the real-world resources and
> context, and picking realistic routes.

Whoever hears you may even believe that Microsoft products and
supporting sites are successful because they don't have flaws. Sorry,
but honestely this sounds like an excuse for not doing it.

> As for the GUI business, I'll repeat what I answered to others on this
> list, and on other lists, in many occassions.
> First off, Perl and Python are *NOT* successful GUI platforms.  They may
> feature complete, they may be very easy to use and develop (I don't use
> either, so I don't know) but in practice, they're completely negligible in
> the GUI world.  I don't think anybody has a good reason to believe this is
> going to change in a revolutionary manner.  Now, does the fact that I
> that hurts the developers of Perl's and Python's GUI bindings?  I sure as
> hell hope it doesn't, and it doesn't, if they're realistic people.
> I don't see the efforts made in the PHP-GUI front as fundamentally
> different.  It's useful, it's cool, it should be developed and improved,
> and no, it will not take over the world.

The problem is not PHP-GUI capabilities being able to compete with other
languages. The problem is that you seem to be willing to omit them when
you present PHP as if it is something you don't want PHP be known for.

> About a central resource of PHP sites that has a voting system - I think
> that's a good idea.  You're quite welcome to implement it if you
> volunteer. will happily host it.

My point to suggest that was to help you to make it work according to a
criteria that you would accept. In the end it would to favor your cause,
which is the PHP future. I can't justify any time spent on that because
I don't depend on PHP for my professional future. Currently, I even do
not even program for a living. I manage people in a company that pays me
for managing software development projects.

In this company, they have choose Microsoft stuff because they think it
is the right choice for what they do. For some things, PHP could be a
better choice, but it would be hard to convince who is in charge above
me because PHP does not benefit of a great credibility in the market
that would help me to make a good case to switch to PHP. This is my most
important point: to make PHP a credible well known solution in all
markets that it could be used with advantage.

Manuel Lemos

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