On Mon, 2013-03-25 at 10:19 -0700, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > On Mar 25, 12:35 pm, Steve Schmechel <[email protected]> wrote: > > In order to make creating a web application like "configuring an XML file", > > your framework must be very opinionated, which Pyramid is not. I think > > there are two different audiences here and you are never going to change > > Django "configurers" into Pyramid programmers with a great book. > > 100% in agreement.
Errr. I've written a Django app, and it wasn't anywhere near like just changing a config file. It's a lot like writing an app under any other web environment... requests, view callables, templates, integration with 3rd party libraries and system processes, etc. Pyramid and Django, where they overlap, are very similar, and developers face the same problems and use similar solutions. But their overlap is pretty small. Pyramid does about 5% of what Django does. You would think that would make Pyramid much easier to explain. But its taken me ~800 pages to try, and still the effort doesn't please everyone. So I don't think there is any question whatsoever that a book written from another perspective would be valuable, as clearly different people learn differently. The challenge is only in identifying how that book would differ from the existing docs. That's not much of a challenge, however: "Pyramid and SQLAlchemy"... "Pyramid and MongoDB"... "Writing Web Services with Pyramid"... "Creating Mobile Applications With Pyramid"... "Pyramid for New Python Developers"... "Pyramid for Django Programmers"... etc. It's awful easy to come up with a list of potential topics that will contextualize using Pyramid for some audience better than the existing docs will ever be able to. - C > > > > Maybe they would be better suited with a book on one of the opinionated > > frameworks built on top of Pyramid. (Kotti, Ptah, Khufu, Akhet) Those > > frameworks have made many of the tough decisions for them and, if one of > > them meets their needs, they just need a little help "configuring" it. > > I think the books do little in terms of "Configuring" and more in > terms of "reading on the couch and getting excited by it" , then using > it with a computer later/the next day. I thought about suggesting > that one or more frameworks are "annointed" as representations of > pyramid, and those are shown as a comparative "this is how you build a > messagebaord app". > > > > There is another, maybe smaller, set of programmers that do use Pyramid > > directly to either create an "opinionated" framework or to solve a problem > > that is difficult to do with other frameworks. For them, extra books on > > integrating various pieces are very valuable, although whether that value > > adds up to enough to make it worth the authors time is another story. > > > > Which takes us back to the first point of the OP: > > * What kind of book about Pyramid do you think would be successful? > > My concern is that those type of people aren't going to read a Pyramid > book. They're going through the docs. They're active on lists. > They've got the API to answer most questions. > > I see a benefit of having a technical reference guide & best-practices > for Pyramid. I'm reminded of the Exim4 book ( on UIT Cambridge Press, > not the exim3 on o'reilley) - philip hazel did a stellar job > describing the nuances of SMTP , all the design decisions in exim , > the specifics of routing , and then went into API and howto. It's one > of the best Technical Books I've ever had the pleasure of reading. > BUT... I got it in 2005. This was before broadband was widely > available , or we had things like autogenerated docs. In any event, > the existing "Narrative documentation" is like a condensed version of > the Exim book. > > Anyone who is now using or considering Pyramid, is very unlikely to > buy or read a book -- They're the type of person who does RTFM > already. The "Sweet Spot" for book sales and evangelism, is going to > be addressing some section of the django market and people who are new > to python. > > An idea that I think could work is something like: "Teach yourself > Python with Pyramid... the most powerful and flexible web framework". > Show how to build a simple db backed webpage using "raw" pyramid, and > then a framework or two, and then loop back into raw pyramid and show > how Pyramid lets you alter all the stuff that kotti/ptah/whatever does > in some way. > > if you look at the reviews on Amazon for the various Django books, the > samples i looked at largely read like this: beginning programmers > praise them, intermediate to advanced ones say things like "reading it > cover to cover, it explained how/why various underpinnings happened" > and "the official tutorials are better". > > anyways, my point is that I'd look at what people are buying/reading > the django books for and then write a book catered to them and those > needs. i don't see the current pyramid audience getting much out of a > book, but i do see the chance to develop and grow an audience. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
