> > An idea that I think could work is something like: "Teach yourself > Python with Pyramid... the most powerful and flexible web framework"
Just to build on this from my perspective - one thing I've noticed about pyramid is its adherence to python standards and best practices - encouraging the use of tools like distutils, setuptools, pip, PyPI, virtualenv -- all this stuff from the python ecosystem that any competent python programmer would eventually need to learn and would be that person's eventual bread and butter. tbh before pyramid I didn't use most of these things with any frequency. A book that talks about coding in python with a goal to situate the reader inside the python ecosystem, with a clear understanding of what all the standard resources are and what the best practices are -- taught via the use of pyramid as an awesome web framework (everybody understands the web as a platform, what better way to learn a language than to build a web application in it) -- could be pretty useful angle, and not really covered by existing documentation. my 2 cents, -Sid On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 10:47 AM, Chris McDonough <[email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, 2013-03-25 at 10:19 -0700, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: > > > > On Mar 25, 12:35 pm, Steve Schmechel <[email protected]> wrote: > > > In order to make creating a web application like "configuring an XML > file", > > > your framework must be very opinionated, which Pyramid is not. I think > > > there are two different audiences here and you are never going to > change > > > Django "configurers" into Pyramid programmers with a great book. > > > > 100% in agreement. > > Errr. I've written a Django app, and it wasn't anywhere near like just > changing a config file. It's a lot like writing an app under any other > web environment... requests, view callables, templates, integration with > 3rd party libraries and system processes, etc. Pyramid and Django, > where they overlap, are very similar, and developers face the same > problems and use similar solutions. > > But their overlap is pretty small. Pyramid does about 5% of what Django > does. You would think that would make Pyramid much easier to explain. > But its taken me ~800 pages to try, and still the effort doesn't please > everyone. > > So I don't think there is any question whatsoever that a book written > from another perspective would be valuable, as clearly different people > learn differently. The challenge is only in identifying how that book > would differ from the existing docs. That's not much of a challenge, > however: "Pyramid and SQLAlchemy"... "Pyramid and MongoDB"... "Writing > Web Services with Pyramid"... "Creating Mobile Applications With > Pyramid"... "Pyramid for New Python Developers"... "Pyramid for Django > Programmers"... etc. It's awful easy to come up with a list of > potential topics that will contextualize using Pyramid for some audience > better than the existing docs will ever be able to. > > - C > > > > > > > > > > Maybe they would be better suited with a book on one of the opinionated > > > frameworks built on top of Pyramid. (Kotti, Ptah, Khufu, Akhet) Those > > > frameworks have made many of the tough decisions for them and, if one > of > > > them meets their needs, they just need a little help "configuring" it. > > > > I think the books do little in terms of "Configuring" and more in > > terms of "reading on the couch and getting excited by it" , then using > > it with a computer later/the next day. I thought about suggesting > > that one or more frameworks are "annointed" as representations of > > pyramid, and those are shown as a comparative "this is how you build a > > messagebaord app". > > > > > > > There is another, maybe smaller, set of programmers that do use Pyramid > > > directly to either create an "opinionated" framework or to solve a > problem > > > that is difficult to do with other frameworks. For them, extra books > on > > > integrating various pieces are very valuable, although whether that > value > > > adds up to enough to make it worth the authors time is another story. > > > > > > Which takes us back to the first point of the OP: > > > * What kind of book about Pyramid do you think would be successful? > > > > My concern is that those type of people aren't going to read a Pyramid > > book. They're going through the docs. They're active on lists. > > They've got the API to answer most questions. > > > > I see a benefit of having a technical reference guide & best-practices > > for Pyramid. I'm reminded of the Exim4 book ( on UIT Cambridge Press, > > not the exim3 on o'reilley) - philip hazel did a stellar job > > describing the nuances of SMTP , all the design decisions in exim , > > the specifics of routing , and then went into API and howto. It's one > > of the best Technical Books I've ever had the pleasure of reading. > > BUT... I got it in 2005. This was before broadband was widely > > available , or we had things like autogenerated docs. In any event, > > the existing "Narrative documentation" is like a condensed version of > > the Exim book. > > > > Anyone who is now using or considering Pyramid, is very unlikely to > > buy or read a book -- They're the type of person who does RTFM > > already. The "Sweet Spot" for book sales and evangelism, is going to > > be addressing some section of the django market and people who are new > > to python. > > > > An idea that I think could work is something like: "Teach yourself > > Python with Pyramid... the most powerful and flexible web framework". > > Show how to build a simple db backed webpage using "raw" pyramid, and > > then a framework or two, and then loop back into raw pyramid and show > > how Pyramid lets you alter all the stuff that kotti/ptah/whatever does > > in some way. > > > > if you look at the reviews on Amazon for the various Django books, the > > samples i looked at largely read like this: beginning programmers > > praise them, intermediate to advanced ones say things like "reading it > > cover to cover, it explained how/why various underpinnings happened" > > and "the official tutorials are better". > > > > anyways, my point is that I'd look at what people are buying/reading > > the django books for and then write a book catered to them and those > > needs. i don't see the current pyramid audience getting much out of a > > book, but i do see the chance to develop and grow an audience. > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
