Pyramid, A Salty Curmudgeon's Approach to Web Development d. "whit" morriss Platform Codemonkey [email protected]
On Mar 25, 2013, at 12:47 PM, Chris McDonough <[email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, 2013-03-25 at 10:19 -0700, Jonathan Vanasco wrote: >> >> On Mar 25, 12:35 pm, Steve Schmechel <[email protected]> wrote: >>> In order to make creating a web application like "configuring an XML file", >>> your framework must be very opinionated, which Pyramid is not. I think >>> there are two different audiences here and you are never going to change >>> Django "configurers" into Pyramid programmers with a great book. >> >> 100% in agreement. > > Errr. I've written a Django app, and it wasn't anywhere near like just > changing a config file. It's a lot like writing an app under any other > web environment... requests, view callables, templates, integration with > 3rd party libraries and system processes, etc. Pyramid and Django, > where they overlap, are very similar, and developers face the same > problems and use similar solutions. > > But their overlap is pretty small. Pyramid does about 5% of what Django > does. You would think that would make Pyramid much easier to explain. > But its taken me ~800 pages to try, and still the effort doesn't please > everyone. > > So I don't think there is any question whatsoever that a book written > from another perspective would be valuable, as clearly different people > learn differently. The challenge is only in identifying how that book > would differ from the existing docs. That's not much of a challenge, > however: "Pyramid and SQLAlchemy"... "Pyramid and MongoDB"... "Writing > Web Services with Pyramid"... "Creating Mobile Applications With > Pyramid"... "Pyramid for New Python Developers"... "Pyramid for Django > Programmers"... etc. It's awful easy to come up with a list of > potential topics that will contextualize using Pyramid for some audience > better than the existing docs will ever be able to. > > - C > > > >> >> >>> Maybe they would be better suited with a book on one of the opinionated >>> frameworks built on top of Pyramid. (Kotti, Ptah, Khufu, Akhet) Those >>> frameworks have made many of the tough decisions for them and, if one of >>> them meets their needs, they just need a little help "configuring" it. >> >> I think the books do little in terms of "Configuring" and more in >> terms of "reading on the couch and getting excited by it" , then using >> it with a computer later/the next day. I thought about suggesting >> that one or more frameworks are "annointed" as representations of >> pyramid, and those are shown as a comparative "this is how you build a >> messagebaord app". >> >> >>> There is another, maybe smaller, set of programmers that do use Pyramid >>> directly to either create an "opinionated" framework or to solve a problem >>> that is difficult to do with other frameworks. For them, extra books on >>> integrating various pieces are very valuable, although whether that value >>> adds up to enough to make it worth the authors time is another story. >>> >>> Which takes us back to the first point of the OP: >>> * What kind of book about Pyramid do you think would be successful? >> >> My concern is that those type of people aren't going to read a Pyramid >> book. They're going through the docs. They're active on lists. >> They've got the API to answer most questions. >> >> I see a benefit of having a technical reference guide & best-practices >> for Pyramid. I'm reminded of the Exim4 book ( on UIT Cambridge Press, >> not the exim3 on o'reilley) - philip hazel did a stellar job >> describing the nuances of SMTP , all the design decisions in exim , >> the specifics of routing , and then went into API and howto. It's one >> of the best Technical Books I've ever had the pleasure of reading. >> BUT... I got it in 2005. This was before broadband was widely >> available , or we had things like autogenerated docs. In any event, >> the existing "Narrative documentation" is like a condensed version of >> the Exim book. >> >> Anyone who is now using or considering Pyramid, is very unlikely to >> buy or read a book -- They're the type of person who does RTFM >> already. The "Sweet Spot" for book sales and evangelism, is going to >> be addressing some section of the django market and people who are new >> to python. >> >> An idea that I think could work is something like: "Teach yourself >> Python with Pyramid... the most powerful and flexible web framework". >> Show how to build a simple db backed webpage using "raw" pyramid, and >> then a framework or two, and then loop back into raw pyramid and show >> how Pyramid lets you alter all the stuff that kotti/ptah/whatever does >> in some way. >> >> if you look at the reviews on Amazon for the various Django books, the >> samples i looked at largely read like this: beginning programmers >> praise them, intermediate to advanced ones say things like "reading it >> cover to cover, it explained how/why various underpinnings happened" >> and "the official tutorials are better". >> >> anyways, my point is that I'd look at what people are buying/reading >> the django books for and then write a book catered to them and those >> needs. i don't see the current pyramid audience getting much out of a >> book, but i do see the chance to develop and grow an audience. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "pylons-discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss?hl=en. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. 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