Bob Sleys said the following on 06/20/2011 02:24 PM:

> The problem with the r:navigation is you need to pass the pages you want
> added manually OR loop though them all via other tags like the children
> tags but then you need some way to order them.  IE the idea here is to
> setup the menu to be automatically created from the listing of pages
> without having the add new pages into the menu manually.

Which limits you.

I have a setup where not all my top level items should be in the menu.
Yes, they are a limited set and I don't need to auto-generate them.
Yes, some pages do other things.

My top level not only has the main categories that go in the main menu
but additional ones such as "book reviews", "links collection", "site
map", "styles", "Amazon store" and more - extras.

I'm well aware that I could have one top level item "MAIN" and all the
menu-able site stuff under that, but I chose not to.  YMMV.

There are good reasons not to have an automatically generated main menu.
In a word "Discipline".   Figure out your site design beforehand and
don't get caught up in 'yes but ...' and 'oh I forgot ...'

If I were to have a site that expanded I hope I'd design one that
expanded in depth not in width!  The idea of a menu with more than half
a dozen items[1] frightens me - poor usability.  But that does depend on
how you 'chunk' it[2].  Which is why I use <r:navigation>

Now within each category I *DO* have a hierarchy and within that I have
a number of representations, including a sidebar menu that lets you
navigate to children, siblings and parent.  THAT, because of DRY, I have
a snippet that works automatically.  But not all pages have that.  Often
its better to use other formats.

For example, many wikipedia pages have a layout that goes

        Introductory Text

The menu giving links to parts of the body.
That's easy to set up.  The parts are actually children.

But do you need reordering?  Possibly not: it depends on the discipline
of your design.  I rarely do and I've never _ever_ used the drag to do so.

Copy/re-order?  Yes its there.
I use the copy/move extension by Andrea Franz.
Rock Solid

Now if that's to gross (as in heavy handed) for you, there is the
'reorder' extension.  Little up and down arrows on the page listing.
Shuffle them up one step at a time.  Fine control.

Try those two.

[1] See the classic seminal paper "Seven Plus or minus two: a limit to
    our information handling capability" Martin, Journal of the
    American Philosophical Society, 1956, Vol. 101, No. 2, 343-352,_Plus_or_Minus_Two

[2] Many pages have hundred of links, but look at NYTmes or BBC and see
    how they group items.

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