Patrick: I've also found the same. I like to be back on the saddle when cranking at a low rpm. But prefer to be a bit further forward when I'm spinning with less resistance. Just my (completely unscientific) observations.
Rene: For you're sake, lets hope they graded on a curve! I've definitely found the same. The B17 always needed to be all the way back for me...even on a Riv. One of the reasons I think I'm more comfortable on the C17. As for choosing the bike for drop versus upright... I just picked up a used Hilsen for a second bike...Woohoo! I ended up going with a 61cm, even though Riv sizing says my 89.75 pbh would be better on a 63. Though there is a bit more seatpost/stem showing then I like, I went with the 61 for a few reasons: (1) My 62cm SimpleOne fits me perfectly and shares the same top tube length as the 61 Hilsen. I know Riv downplays this, but for a long-legged, short-torsoed gentleman like myself, I try to pay attention to it; (2) I feel like I could use drops or upright bars on the 61, while the 63 would be too long and require a ridiculously short stem. Granted, I probably won't put drop bars on it anytime soon, but I like the feeling that it's possible; and (3) it was available at a good price and is a beautiful bike. That said, I may live to regret the choice. But like I say to my students when they ask if something will work, 'there's only one way to find out.' Eric On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:52:15 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: > > Eric: this agrees with what I read about saddle setback and weight on > hands; that a butt position behind the bb, no matter how this is achieved, > makes your torso muscles carry more weight and leaves less on your hands. > It certainly agrees, too, with my own experience -- a saddle too far > forward makes you support yourself on the bar. > > Of course there are other reasons for having more saddle setback; pedaling > torque is one that I notice -- I find myself scooting back when I want to > shove the pedals around at low rpm, for example, when climbing in a fixed > gear. > > And the classic bolt-upright bikes certainly seem to "encourage" a setback > saddle. Look at the 3 photos below and see where the saddle nose falls wrt > the cranks. > > The omafiets looks horrible; yet, when I've ridden one -- no more than a > few hundred yards -- I have been surprised at how "lively" it feels; though > the bars hit my knees when I turn sharply. > > [image: Inline image 1] > > [image: Inline image 2] > > [image: Inline image 3] > > Ok, ok, yes, this is extreme, but whatta bout this one? Froome, 2016. > > [image: Inline image 4] > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Eric Karnes <epka...@gmail.com > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> Very good question. I have a similar understanding of geometry as I have >> of macroeconomics. Which is to say, none. So I'll leave the theorizing to >> others. >> >> But I will say (as a few others have opined in other conversations) that >> I have never been able to get older racing bikes to work well with upright >> bars. On my mid-eighties Trek for example (73.5 sta and 73 hta), I always >> felt like all of my weight was resting on my hands. This occurred even with >> different bars (albatross, jitensha, vo porteur), different stem lengths >> (everything from 8mm to 12mm), and different bar heights (below, even with, >> and above the saddle). It turned out the most expensive 200 dollar >> Craigslist bike I've ever come across. >> >> My SimpleOne on the other hand (72 and 72 if I remember correctly), works >> beautifully with upright bars. Right now it's sporting VO Porteurs even >> with the saddle height, so it's not like I even have to be bolt upright to >> be comfortable. It took a little bit of noodling to get it dialed in, but >> honestly not a whole lot. I'm even thinking of getting a Hilsen with the >> same tt length and trying out some drop bars (which have always intimidated >> my long-legged, short-torsoed self). >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:37:29 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: >>> >>> Starting a new thread about a topic that has interested me for a long >>> time, with a question: do slack angles and therefore (all else equal) >>> saddles well back of bb, work better with upright positions? Or perhaps, an >>> upright position works best with a rearward saddle and thus slack angles? >>> >>> I recall dithering about a nice Dave Moulton, at a very good price, >>> because of the 74* st angle, and being told that a racing position on a >>> racing bike means being forward over the crank assembly/bb shell. This was >>> confirmed by several experienced ex racers. I finally passed. >>> >>> The classic bolt upright ride seems to be the Raleigh DL-1, perhaps >>> Dutch city bikes (but I've no experience with them). Such slack angles, >>> high bb shell, and ends of grips practically bumping your knees. I've >>> ridden many such bikes and I've watched others ride them, and I know for a >>> fact that they very strongly discourage an energetic riding style -- if you >>> try to ride hard, you always (and I see others always) reposition the body >>> to negate the design -- lean forward, grab bar next to stem, sit on nose of >>> saddle). >>> >>> And then there's the gearing: stock on the DL-1 was 46/18 or 72 gi, >>> iirc. Even if 44/18, that's still 68". Even 68" on a very tall, 50 lb bike >>> is damned high. >>> >>> So the design must have been built with a (1) relaxed or energy >>> conserving and (2) ponderous or high torque/low rpm >>> >>> It's hard to understand why the DL-1 remained in production for so long; >>> I don't think that this extended product life can't be explained solely on >>> failing-socialist Indian and Chinese economic practices, or pure inertia. >>> >>> So something about this sort of riding position must work, and therefore >>> one presumes that Raleigh had worked out the riding style, and then the >>> position, and then the angles and lengths that were most efficient with >>> this position. >>> >>> Translate this into the upright Rivendells. These have low bbs, so >>> that's different; they also come with low gearing -- I get the impression >>> that these favor spinning, and not mashing? >>> >>> And the Rivs have startlingly long tts -- to countereffect the rearward >>> sweep of the bar and the slacker heads? So, this would mean a more >>> aggressive riding position, and therefore more spirited riding style, than >>> what the DL-1 was designed for. >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Eric Karnes <epka...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> My guess that this is mostly a commentary on the use of fairly steep >>>> seat tube angles (73–75 degrees) on many road/sport/touring bikes from >>>> (very roughly) the 80s to present. This can make it very hard for some >>>> people to get a proper weight distribution without slamming the seat back, >>>> using an ultra-setback seatpost, or a combination of both. I had a >>>> mid-eighties Trek sport touring bike like this. I loved the way the frame >>>> rode, but the 73.5 degree sta made it impossible for me to get comfortable. >>>> >>>> [...] >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 2:27:41 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote: >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> As a follow-up, I saw somewhere Grant writing that people like to slam >>>>> the seats ALL the way back - is this due to the upright bars / higher >>>>> than >>>>> seat bars / upright posture on a bike? >>>>> >>>> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com >> <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. > By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. > Other professional writing services. > http://www.resumespecialties.com/ > www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ > Patrick Moore > Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten > ************************************************************************** > ************** > *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a > circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and > individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu > > *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the > world revolves.) *Carthusian motto > > *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart > > *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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