How do you find having the saddle all the way affects your reach to the 
pedals / pedal stroke?

On Thursday, October 13, 2016 at 5:57:19 PM UTC-4, Eric Karnes wrote:
> Patrick: I've also found the same. I like to be back on the saddle when 
> cranking at a low rpm. But prefer to be a bit further forward when I'm 
> spinning with less resistance. Just my (completely unscientific) 
> observations.
> Rene: For you're sake, lets hope they graded on a curve! I've definitely 
> found the same. The B17 always needed to be all the way back for me...even 
> on a Riv. One of the reasons I think I'm more comfortable on the C17.
> As for choosing the bike for drop versus upright... 
> I just picked up a used Hilsen for a second bike...Woohoo! I ended up 
> going with a 61cm, even though Riv sizing says my 89.75 pbh would be better 
> on a 63. Though there is a bit more seatpost/stem showing then I like, I 
> went with the 61 for a few reasons: (1) My 62cm SimpleOne fits me perfectly 
> and shares the same top tube length as the 61 Hilsen. I know Riv downplays 
> this, but for a long-legged, short-torsoed gentleman like myself, I try to 
> pay attention to it; (2) I feel like I could use drops or upright bars on 
> the 61, while the 63 would be too long and require a ridiculously short 
> stem. Granted, I probably won't put drop bars on it anytime soon, but I 
> like the feeling that it's possible; and (3) it was available at a good 
> price and is a beautiful bike. That said, I may live to regret the choice. 
> But like I say to my students when they ask if something will work, 
> 'there's only one way to find out.'
> Eric
> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:52:15 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>> Eric: this agrees with what I read about saddle setback and weight on 
>> hands; that a butt position behind the bb, no matter how this is achieved, 
>> makes your torso muscles carry more weight and leaves less on your hands. 
>> It certainly agrees, too, with my own experience -- a saddle too far 
>> forward makes you support yourself on the bar.
>> Of course there are other reasons for having more saddle setback; 
>> pedaling torque is one that I notice -- I find myself scooting back when I 
>> want to shove the pedals around at low rpm, for example, when climbing in a 
>> fixed gear. 
>> And the classic bolt-upright bikes certainly seem to "encourage" a 
>> setback saddle. Look at the 3 photos below and see where the saddle nose 
>> falls wrt the cranks.
>> The omafiets looks horrible; yet, when I've ridden one -- no more than a 
>> few hundred yards -- I have been surprised at how "lively" it feels; though 
>> the bars hit my knees when I turn sharply.
>> [image: Inline image 1]
>> [image: Inline image 2]
>> [image: Inline image 3]
>> Ok, ok, yes, this is extreme, but whatta bout this one? Froome, 2016.
>> [image: Inline image 4]
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 9:12 AM, Eric Karnes <> wrote:
>>> Very good question. I have a similar understanding of geometry as I have 
>>> of macroeconomics. Which is to say, none. So I'll leave the theorizing to 
>>> others.
>>> But I will say (as a few others have opined in other conversations) that 
>>> I have never been able to get older racing bikes to work well with upright 
>>> bars. On my mid-eighties Trek for example (73.5 sta and 73 hta), I always 
>>> felt like all of my weight was resting on my hands. This occurred even with 
>>> different bars (albatross, jitensha, vo porteur), different stem lengths 
>>> (everything from 8mm to 12mm), and different bar heights (below, even with, 
>>> and above the saddle). It turned out the most expensive 200 dollar 
>>> Craigslist bike I've ever come across.
>>> My SimpleOne on the other hand (72 and 72 if I remember correctly), 
>>> works beautifully with upright bars. Right now it's sporting VO Porteurs 
>>> even with the saddle height, so it's not like I even have to be bolt 
>>> upright to be comfortable. It took a little bit of noodling to get it 
>>> dialed in, but honestly not a whole lot. I'm even thinking of getting a 
>>> Hilsen with the same tt length and trying out some drop bars (which have 
>>> always intimidated my long-legged, short-torsoed self).
>>> Eric
>>> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 10:37:29 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>> Starting a new thread about a topic that has interested me for a long 
>>>> time, with a question: do slack angles and therefore (all else equal) 
>>>> saddles well back of bb, work better with upright positions? Or perhaps, 
>>>> an 
>>>> upright position works best with a rearward saddle and thus slack angles?
>>>> I recall dithering about a nice Dave Moulton, at a very good price, 
>>>> because of the 74* st angle, and being told that a racing position on a 
>>>> racing bike means being forward over the crank assembly/bb shell. This was 
>>>> confirmed by several experienced ex racers. I finally passed.
>>>> The classic bolt upright ride seems to be the Raleigh DL-1, perhaps 
>>>> Dutch city bikes (but I've no experience with them). Such slack angles, 
>>>> high bb shell, and ends of grips practically bumping your knees. I've 
>>>> ridden many such bikes and I've watched others ride them, and I know for a 
>>>> fact that they very strongly discourage an energetic riding style -- if 
>>>> you 
>>>> try to ride hard, you always (and I see others always) reposition the body 
>>>> to negate the design -- lean forward, grab bar next to stem, sit on nose 
>>>> of 
>>>> saddle).
>>>> And then there's the gearing: stock on the DL-1 was 46/18 or 72 gi, 
>>>> iirc. Even if 44/18, that's still 68". Even 68" on a very tall, 50 lb bike 
>>>> is damned high.
>>>> So the design must have been built with a (1) relaxed or energy 
>>>> conserving and (2) ponderous or high torque/low rpm
>>>> It's hard to understand why the DL-1 remained in production for so 
>>>> long; I don't think that this extended product life can't be explained 
>>>> solely on failing-socialist Indian and Chinese economic practices, or pure 
>>>> inertia.
>>>> So something about this sort of riding position must work, and 
>>>> therefore one presumes that Raleigh had worked out the riding style, and 
>>>> then the position, and then the angles and lengths that were most 
>>>> efficient 
>>>> with this position.
>>>> Translate this into the upright Rivendells. These have low bbs, so 
>>>> that's different; they also come with low gearing -- I get the impression 
>>>> that these favor spinning, and not mashing?
>>>> And the Rivs have startlingly long tts -- to countereffect the rearward 
>>>> sweep of the bar and the slacker heads? So, this would mean a more 
>>>> aggressive riding position, and therefore more spirited riding style, than 
>>>> what the DL-1 was designed for.
>>>> On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 2:19 PM, Eric Karnes <> wrote:
>>>>> My guess that this is mostly a commentary on the use of fairly steep 
>>>>> seat tube angles (73–75 degrees) on many road/sport/touring bikes from 
>>>>> (very roughly) the 80s to present. This can make it very hard for some 
>>>>> people to get a proper weight distribution without slamming the seat 
>>>>> back, 
>>>>> using an ultra-setback seatpost, or a combination of both. I had a 
>>>>> mid-eighties Trek sport touring bike like this. I loved the way the frame 
>>>>> rode, but the 73.5 degree sta made it impossible for me to get 
>>>>> comfortable.
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 11, 2016 at 2:27:41 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>> As a follow-up, I saw somewhere Grant writing that people like to 
>>>>>> slam the seats ALL the way back - is this due to the upright bars / 
>>>>>> higher 
>>>>>> than seat bars / upright posture on a bike?
>>>>> -- 
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>> -- 
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>> *************************************
>> ***************************************************
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
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