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You claim to know the truth but ignore the evil done by Israel. That pretty much identifies you. _____ From: donnella whitacre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 8:07 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RHETORIC] FOLLOW UP: SECURITY FENCE i have a really good picture of 1948 thank you.it is your assesement that the leaders of israel are criminals and there for the same, not mine. there is just as much truth to the fact that many jews lived there before as the 5 million so called palistinians who claim they lived there. my g-d knows the differnece between self defense and first strike terrorists. and we have a mitzvot to protect our selves not to allow our selves to be killed out of hand. i have read dozens of books on pre 1948, and on. i also know the history of thousands of persectued jews who fled arab lands and are not from brooklyn or europe. bottom line the U.N. as every one is so fond of quoting, partitioned the land giving israel that land and the rest to the arabs. they have enough, the jews lived there also, they deserve some of it. they merely seek to protect that portion of it that is theirs. if that makes them criminals to you . so what? lets see the arabs are freedom fighters, the israelis criminals? hmmmm? "G. Waleed Kavalec" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| I suggest you gain a more accurate picture of 1948 et al. The people that arrived then were Europeans, not people stepping out of the Old Testament. Are you saying the fact that the leaders of (most) Arabic countries are criminals makes it OK for the leaders of Israel? Sorry Donnella but I don't live like that; my Creator won't take a whining "but Abdul did it too!" as a get out of hell free card. We each have to carry our own burdens. _____ From: donnella whitacre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 8:23 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RHETORIC] FOLLOW UP: SECURITY FENCE that is not the way it is. i know people who live in israel and they aren't part of the military and to say it is o.k to kill unarmed civilians is wrong. israel is not as oppressive as most arab countries. so now what? they didn't take any thing and tell people to move out. they have lived there for centuries and have just as much right to be there as any one. the arabs were given 77% and 22 states enough for any one. if they feel oppressed they could move some were really opressive like saudi arabia or morocco or the sudan were the islamic military has killed 30,000 people for being the wrong faith. selling children into slavery. i really hate listening to all this bull about how bad israel is when you can look around and see several arab countries that treat their own far worse. sorry don't buy it. "G. Waleed Kavalec" wrote: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| My point is that your comments are either deceptive or uninformed. An adult citizen in Israel is a de facto member of the military, and as long as Israel is acting like a Nazi regime their so-called 'civilians' who AREN'T civilians are legitimate targets. I *guarantee* that if the UN had decided to carve out a chunk of Texas, tell everyone there to leave, and ship in whoever it was they were trying to "help" you wouldn't have seen the problem last 50+ years. The new arrivals (and the UN) would be buried in dusty history books. Hank's answer is the right one, but until then don't expect anything less than the mayhem we are seeing now. And the more repressive the Israeli government gets the faster the Israeli population will shrink. You don't have to like it, that's just the way it is. _____ From: donnella whitacre [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 7:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RHETORIC] FOLLOW UP: SECURITY FENCE and what is your point? is that why so many of them have been gunned down on the road? every one services their years if that is what you mean. "G. Waleed Kavalec" wrote: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| "...the other side that deliberately targets civilians." I don't support either side's violence, but you need to wake up to the fact that every Israeli adult is explicitly in the military. G. -----Original Message----- From: Defending the Truth discussion List [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of donnella whitacre Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 12:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RHETORIC] FOLLOW UP: SECURITY FENCE |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| when the terrorists use civilian areas for a place to hide what do you do? the tunnels and labs for building bombs are there, what are they suppose to do? they try as best they can not to kill civilians which is more than can be said for the other side that deliberately targets civilians. you can only be so good in war. the u.s. targeted dresden because of the bomb factories, thousands of civilians died. hiroshima, hundreds of thousands died. israel has a pretty good record in light of those things. and they apologize when civilians die, they don't dance in the streets and hand out candy. i abor it also, wish it didn't have to be. war is hell. that is what it is, it isn't a chess game. or a gentlemen's wager. SHIN wrote: |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ANNOUNCEMENTS and ARTICLES: http://pnews.org/art/art.shtml |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Rowland Scherman wrote: > > > I used to feel that way, Hank. > I really don't know much about it. > When Israeli gunships start shooting up the place, building the wall > (security fence), they lose me as well as the moral high ground. > > Of course, when PLO's teach their kids to don suits made of plastic TNT, > they don't look so hot either. > > Each side says they want to stop the violence--after they get in the last > kick. Just like in kindergarten. On that I can agree. I do not support surgical strikes. There is no such thing. The people who are cowering behind some wall in a house are not seen by the one pushing the button that shoots the missile into the house and that is inexcusable. But I must say I do not live there. I am not an Israeli. I am not a Palestinian. 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