Heat is what makes some heads clouded ... It takes some cultural and professional level to discuss the substance of a heated topic in a professional manner ...
I think it would be useful to "keep eyes on the ball" and focus this discussion on the original topics of this thread: 1. Is UML sufficient for business process modeling? (If not - why? Examples of models that can't be reproduced in UML?) 2. Is Rose and ReqPro sufficient to do UML-based business modeling? 3. How to address and overcome business-oriented people intimidation with diagrams? What should be done to improve their acceptance of the models? These are real questions that require (and worth) a professional discussion. David Lyalin -----Original Message----- From: Srinidhi Boray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 11:40 AM To: Baynes, Steve; Lyalin, David S.; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Cc: Brian McCarthy; 'Richard A. Menard'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: (ROSE) Process Modelling? Hi, Sorry if I did come across bit rudely. Anyway, heat is what that helps evolution. Find attached article from Zachman on enterprise architecture/modeling. I guess It should be very interesting area for all business modelers. rgds srinidhi --- "Baynes, Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all, I can see this thread becoming very > interesting and, possibly, quite > heated (heated occurs as I write)! So before that > happens here is my view > point... > > Process Modelling - what are we trying to achieve. > > The aim of modelling is quite simple (in my opinion) > - it allows us to > "share complex information". How many architects > selling a building idea do > not provide a mock-up model (none, I would suggest > because the mock-up model > is a very effective method of conveying complex > information (i.e. the > architectural diagrams, another form of model). If > the model can be > interactive so much the better but its value is > allowing us to share the > complex information (having spent many an hour > completing the information > necessary to generate interactive Casewise models I > can assure everyone > interactively modelling the simple is not worth the > effort). > > So the aim of a model is to share complex > information. This means diagrams > are a very good modelling tool (they are just not > interactive). UML is a > very good modelling language as everyone > "understands" what it means. > > One other thought - the model must be targeted at > the audience. Presenting > the UML model to the executive board is a very good > way to get fired. > > I hope this does not add to much fat to the fire > > Regards > Stephen Baynes > > -----Original Message----- > From: Srinidhi Boray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: 19 September 2002 15:13 > To: Lyalin, David S.; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > Cc: 'Srinidhi Boray'; Brian McCarthy; 'Richard A. > Menard'; > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Lyalin, David S. > Subject: RE: (ROSE) Process Modeling? > > > > Hello David, > > Sorry, I have to deny you to employ into > professional > practice the common sense (wrt 'modeling') that you > intend to think that it is. Instead, I prefer to > offer > you following observation which may help you to > discern better the concepts of modeling. > > 1. Diagram is not a model. A model is a model is a > model. Diagram is a mere depiction of one instance > or > one perspective of a model. Several diagrams > combined > together attempts to capture the whole truth of a > model. Yet it fails. > > 2. Strong notations are required to be followed > while > modeling, to maintain and retain the model > integrity. > Else spurious elements creep in during modeling and > become demonic during the implementation stage. Slay > the demon when it is young. Any vanity provides room > for the demon to creep in. A good modeler in a > disciplined way keeps out all cosmetic attempts. > > 3. Model is not to appease client. Model is to > assist > as a cohesive thinking artifact based on which > productive collaborative actions can be planned. So, > models must be objective and clear in nature. > Beauticians to be kept out. > > 4. Last but not the least Happiness is not in > avoiding > problem or in sublimating (with fancy notations :)) > )them. It is in solving them. Bottom line ...client > wants solution and not fancy diagrams to hang on > their > walls.. > > cheers > srinidhi > > > > > > Good morning, > > > > I'd like to put these "process modeling" things in > a > > "common sense" > > perspective. > > Let me start from the quote: > > "Any diagram is intimidating to the uninitiated, > so > > it is extremely > > important that the diagram is as attractive as > > possible and that it conveys > > the sense of what is to be communicated. Of > course, > > this (primarily) > > requires skill on the part of the diagrammer." > > http://www.BRCommunity.com/a2002/b117.html (It is > > interesting, that the > > author of this quotation is strongly against UML). > > Common sense should prevail. Show to me any model > of > > the business process, > > and I will show to you how to built it with UML > > instruments (diagrams and > > use cases). Rose and ReqPro quite sufficient for > > business process modeling. > > The only thing they would not do for you is a > > process simulation (if you > > ever need it). The rest is just usual > > groups-interest-serving dogs struggle > > under the rug. And if you would like your business > > clients to like your > > diagrams - develop your diagramming skills and > build > > a good ones (see > > quotation above). Otherwise, no tool and no > notation > > will ever help ... > > > > Happy modeling. > > > > David Lyalin > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Srinidhi Boray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 5:22 PM > > To: Brian McCarthy; 'Richard A. Menard' > > Cc: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > > Subject: RE: (ROSE) Process Modeling? > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > To add to the muddle!!! Every time I hear process > > analysis, process modeling etc and anything > related > > to > > processes, I realize that what one is really > talking > > about is 'one instance' of the processes. If one > > intends to model one instance of a process then > one > > may choose whatever on earth to depict pictorially > > that instance. Process modeling is lot more than > > mere > > representation as a 2d diagram. Process model is > > manifold more than just a mere event flow diagram. > > Process model is a depiction of the dynamic > > functioning of an enterprise as a cumulation of > > several processes utilizing numerous resources and > > horizontally streaking through organized set of > > functional units and each achieving a specific set > > of > > business objective and adding up to fulfill the > > bigger > > business goal. By employing the resources various > > constraints are overcome. Business goals are > always > > accompanied by problems/constraints. The process > > model > > depicting the whole truth of an enterprise results > > into a matrix set of resources and each uniquely > > aiding in the efficient flow of the events (or > > threads > > of processes), overcoming problems as much as > > possible. To model such a process flow more > holistic > > tools such as those based on Enterprise > Architecture > > framework such as Zachman is required. Rose at the > > moment does not offer such a facility and it is > > severely lacking in capacity to capture the > > enterprise > > architecture as a holistic relational model. > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? 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