[cctalk] Re: FW: Re: ADM3a screen rot.
On 29/01/2024 20:45, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: Sellam Abraham wrote: I think you were fine. That's how you discharge them anyway. You were just missing the grounding wire :) I'd rather not be the electron sink In this case. I've never taken a hit off of a CRT have you? Yes, from a 26" CRT in a colour TV. It threw me across the room and taught me a lesson I'll not forget. BTW, if anyone has CRTs lying out of circuit, don't assume they're safe either. The EHT in normal use forces electrons into the glass, and when disconnected they very slowly migrate back to the aquadag, producing a substantial voltage. I remember seeing this demonstrated on an electronics course several decades ago. Which is where I /should/ have learned about discharging CRTs *through a suitable resistor* :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums
On 24/04/2023 06:45, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Bad link Zane I get a weird screen from the timeEd# Delete the strange character after the last "/" and it will work: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/after-3-years-flying-heritage-museum-to-reopen-in-everett/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition
On 23/04/2023 22:52, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: Pete, Did the 8E have core or solid state memory? It had both, but I didn't put the core boards in the dishwasher. I figured they might be too delicate for that, so I rinsed them by hand in the kitchen sink. I should have said that in my original post. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition
On 23/04/2023 17:54, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: I’ve been eying the dishwasher, for the subset of flip chips that that are just DIP logic, carbon comp resistors, and ceramic bypass caps, anyway. But I haven’t been brave enough to try that yet... Most of the logic here has date codes to ’68 or ’69, so I’m inclined to treat it gently. Any suggestions for approaches to clean this up? I've used the dishwasher on a collection of PDP-8/E boards with success. Avoid the hot drying cycle, and don't use a harsh dishwasher detergent; some are quite caustic. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: WTB: Acorn A3010 or A4000
Hi, Ethan, Whereabouts are you? I'm in York, UK, and I have more than one spare BBC Micro. I don't have an A3010 but I do have an A3020 (red function keys) if that's of interest. On 09/02/2023 16:13, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: Looking for an Acorn A3010 or A4000 + KB/Mouse, happy to repair it. Also Sinclair +3 with some disks Also BBC Micro Also Amstrad CPC 6128 color. Could forgo monitor and build my own PSU. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: RQDX3's: Lessons learned.
On 04/02/2023 14:37, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: On 2023-02-03 22:48, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Is it just the ROMs, or also some HW changes? Do we have backup of the newer versions? http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ROMlist It's just the ROMs, though IIRC there is a small difference in the meaning of one of the jumper settings. And just an FYI for the list: that domain came into existence amny years ago following a problem with my old ISP/website when it was taken over by another. Partly as compensation, they provided that domain, but now it looks like it might be going away and I've had no luck with their tech support. Again. Sigh. The data will be preserved and re-homed, maybe even expanded, but I don't know if the domain name will need to change. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac
On 24/12/2022 17:02, Chris via cctalk wrote: Don"t know what an Elan is. I do seem to recall suddenly an Indy with no graphics output, intended to be used as a headless server. That was a Challenge. the Indigo Elan is an Indigo with a particular higher-end graphics card. I still have an Indy running 24/7, providing various services on my network. It has 24-bit graphics and a 100baseT Ethernet interface, but it's not much used other than as a server these days. Not the most efficient but somehow it's always seemed like more trouble to migrate things. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: Whitechapel Computer Works
On 04/11/2022 17:47, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: Hi everyone! I'm curious; other than Wikipedia what do we know about Whitechapel workstations? Do any of us have some working in our collections, with software, disk dumps, etc? Jim Austin has 4 or 5 MG1s and a CG1 in his collection. https://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull
[cctalk] Re: Flipping an 8" diskette
On 01/09/2022 14:31, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: On 5.25" diskettes punching a notch to enable use of the second side worked due to 2 factors: First, the index hole was commonly unused on 5.25" systems so it didn't matter that the index hole was in the wrong place when the diskette was flipped over. It's my experience that the index hole is used, and does matter, on pretty much all 5.25" systems except Apple ][s. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Unrecognized DEC Power Supply in PDP-11/44 Configuration
On 02/12/2021 16:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:29 AM pbirkel--- via cctalk wrote: Does anyone recognize the (presumably) DEC power supply on the front half of the rack-bottom in the 11/44 listing at: It's not a DEC power supply, it's a Fujitsu power supply, likely for an M2284 SMD drive. Probably went in the empty slot you mention below. Yep. Looks identical to the Fujitsu PSU in my 11/40 rack, and the rails are the same as my Fujitsu rails. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Setting up a VMS system
On 23/09/2021 14:23, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Sep 23, 2021, at 9:12 AM, Scott Quinn via cctalk wrote: ... Isn't VMS DCL pretty close to RSX? Never used RSX, but that is what I was always told. I don't know how close it is to RSX, but I do know that RSTS (V9 and later) DCL was explicitly modeled on VMS DCL RSX originally used MCR, but later (from about 3.2 IIRC) had DCL as an option, and that's where VMS DCL came from. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-11/73 boot issues
On 21/09/2021 20:34, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Can an MXV11 be used in a 22 bit system? I thought it was an 18 bit device? MXV11-B is 22-bit. MXV11-A is 18-bit but supposedly can be used in a 22-bit system if the RAM is disabled. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Unix or BSD for Dec PDP 11/34 and 11/45
On 17/09/2021 12:37, devin davison via cctalk wrote: I'm working to get my pdp 11/34 and 11/45 running. I was curious what versions of unix or bsd would work on the machines i have. I wanted to set up the systems with a bunch of dumb terminals and show them off at a local maker fair. 7th Edition Unix would run on either machine, and will support multiple serial terminals. BSD 2.11 needs split I/D space, which the 11/34 doesn't have. If possible too, id like to be able to telnet in to unix or bsd.I was also curious if a ethernet interface exists for my unibus systems, or if i could SLIP/PPP serial to another machine,so i could telnet in as well as use dumb terminals. 7th Edition has no Ethernet/TCP/IP capability. BSD 2.11 does. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: 3d modelling software
On 23/08/2021 17:29, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: I think I may need to get a small part 3d printed (some plastic board mounting guide rails from a PDP 11/24 H7140 PSU). What software is best for a novice? Preferably free! The hobbyist version of Fusion 360 is free. It's what I use. I've tried FreeCAD more than once but it still has some serious bugs. Tinkercad is also free but more limited and although it might be easier to get started with, it's more difficult to do some operations in. I'd avoid Sketchup because it's renowned for producing faulty STL files unless you're careful. If you want some help, you know I'm not very far away. I can certainly I can test STL files out for you, and possibly even print some, depending on what they are. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Apple II PSU
On 10/05/2021 23:31, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: Just me that reaches for a 2mm drill then? Probably. I usually use 3mm or 1/8". I've taken more than one Apple PSU apart that way, long ago. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious
On 26/03/2021 09:15, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: This, for example, is clearly his last piece of "blanc" paper: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Blanc-sheet-of-paper-04/254895244594 (or maybe it's French paper ...) :-) Possibly a test post to check how the system works. Years ago, eBay had a "test" category, for "items not for sale" or some such description. Anyone remember the "air guitar" that sold for something like $500? -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: FW: List your old computer
On 24/02/2021 23:02, stan via cctalk wrote: By any chance, are you thinking of uptimes.net? Some years ago (early 2000's?) it was tracking systems uptimes. I had an Alpha system talking to it at one time. IIRC, the record at one time was a VAX cluster, with an uptime of 1200+ days. Windows NT systems fared a lot worse, average of about 40 some days I never got close to 1200 days, but I had an SGI machine at home talking to uptimes.net. I remember watching it from work as it got close to 1 hours (on the 416th day, 19th November 2002 according to syslog) when suddenly it went off the air. It turned out the electricity provider had (accidentally) tripped the wrong breaker in the local substation. Grr. -- Pete Turnbull
Re: OT: pints, pounds (Was: APL\360
On 01/02/2021 20:24, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Thank heavens that the Brits didn't come out with the 5150--we might have had to deal with Whitworth (BSW) fasteners. Nah, too many of them are similar to UNC/UNF, which would have just caused confusion. We'd have used BA sizes. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: OT: pints, pounds (Was: APL\360
On 01/02/2021 20:07, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: A US pint of water weighs 1.043 pounds. One "fluid ounce" (volume) of water weighs 1.043 ounces (weight)! That's also a US measure. An imperial fluid ounce is 28.4ml and a floz of water weighs 28.4g, same as an avoirdupois ounce. In fact it's defined (or was) as the volume of water that weighs one ounce. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: UNIVAC
On 29/01/2021 15:51, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: I have learned that Bakelite insulating is phenol and formaldehyde with embedded asbestos. Does anyone have any Bakelite insulation in any of their vintage computers? *Some* Bakelite contains asbestos. The primary filler is commonly wood flour. I worked with the Estates' asbestos team at a university and we found that a lot of Bakelite does not contain any asbestos. The trouble is, you can't tell without proper analysis. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC PDP-8/E wanted
On 20/11/2020 16:55, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Go for a 8m or f same omnibus and easer to lift as only onevnibuss panel! - Also a switchmode PSU which is much lighter than the -8/E linear supply. But the -8/M normally has the minimal panel with the power key and minimal toggle switches. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Osborne 1 keyboard repair - success!
On 20/11/2020 17:59, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: Hi Patrik, As to the superglue - it was the only option because the prongs are just melted flat. To get the key mechanism out or off I had to scrape all the melted plastic off. I then subsequently re-attach the key mechanism to the aluminium backing board by applying a tiny drop of superglue between what was left of each prong and the associated hole in the aluminium backing plate. The key mechanisms can be pushed out again with moderate effort if it is ever necessary again. Another way to do this is, or to repair any heat-staked plastic, is to use a cheap 3D printing pen with the sample ABS or even PLA filament they usually come with. Lurid colours are optional with this technique ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Firing up the pdt11
On 13/10/2020 22:28, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Then I guess the question rattling around my brain is "How did I get this Elephant Memory systems disk formatted?" RX01 format is a standard IBM format used by many systems, including many CP/M ones, so it was possible to buy pre-formatted disks. Maybe they came that way. I do have a card around here called an RXV21 from Plessy or something like that, maybe it could talk to an RX01 drive and format the disks? Many 3-party controllers could. Mine isn't a Plessey one, but it can do that - but mine connects to standard SA800-style drives, not an RX02. I also have a Baydel F311 controller, which also can format disks and connects to standard SA800-style drives, but it only does single density. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Osborne 1 keyboard repair?
On 21/09/2020 12:41, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: The problem I am seeing is that 3 keys ("h", "j" and "y") are permanently pressed. I'm not familiar with this keyboard, so despite having fixed lots of other types, what I'm about to write is no more than musing and may be inapplicable drivel, but... A friend once spilled a glass of wine into his keyboard and had a similar problem. I've seen the same from a cola spillage. Washing it fixed it. Can you see if there are any spillage residues in there? IPA isn't always better than water and detergent - though you might want to use it as a water removal agent afterwards. As I imagine you've already realised, the keys are adjacent and likely share a track. I looked at the pictures. Can you get at the other side of the circuit board? If the it's fibreglass or even SRBP with copper tracks, maybe you can get at the tracks to the 'h' etc keys and cut them with a scalpel or craft knife to isolate them to see where the resistance really is. Before cutting anything, obviously make sure you can get a soldering iron in there afterwards to bridge the cuts. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Synchronous serial Re: E-Mail Formats RE: Future of cctalk/cctech
On 18/06/2020 21:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I did see something vaguely similar. Bell 202 modems are 1200 baud FSK, so on a voice channel they normally are 1200 bps half duplex. They can also be hooked up to 4-wire fixed circuits. But they have a reverse channel, good for 150 baud if I remember right. IIRC the Bell standard allows for only 50 baud and the back channel uses ASK (basically switching a carrier on and off). The CCITT equivalent standard is 1200/75 baud, FSK both ways, and in the 1980s and early 90s that was used for Prestel and similar systems, including Micronet, Telecom Gold email, Packet SwitchStream (PSS), BT Tymnet and some online banking systems, here in the UK. It was also used for Minitel in France, BTX in Germany and later for Telidon in Canada. Some of the UK banking systems like HOBS survived using viewdata that way up to the end of the 1990s, and I still have at least a couple of 1275 modems. The idea was to use 1200 for the transmission from central computer to consumer, and the back channel for user responses/commands. Not many people type faster than 7.5cps. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: mail on spool as G-d intended was Re: Future of cctalk/cctech
On 18/06/2020 23:03, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: I used to use netcat, but now I just watch an oscilloscope. Reminds me of a cartoon in a HiFi mag several years ago. Enthusiast talking to friend in front of dual 'scopes, "Why listen to it when I can see it's perfect?" -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC
On 27/05/2020 11:55, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: It's better now, though. Price differences can be explained by delivery costs, import duties, and VAT/sales tax. And in the case of 1977, middlemen who exploit the difficulty in importing stuff oneself. The USA is some sort of gravity well when it comes to postage. It's cheap-ish to send stuff to it, but unreasonably expensive to send stuff from there. So for a product actually made in the USA, USPS, UPS, etc all conspire to ratchet the price up. Very often, yes. I see that most notably when I look at huge shipping charges for stuff on eBay.co.uk or from the Global Store as seen on Amazon.co.uk. Yet it's not always the case. Recently I needed a part for a Weller soldering station originally bought from Farnell in the UK. They're a Weller agent, only a few tens of miles from where I live, so the logical place to look. Nevertheless, it was almost 40% cheaper to buy the part from Digikey, including UPS shipping from Texas to my address in the the UK, where it arrived in 36 hours. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Keyboard inverters/converters for terminals
On 22/05/2020 17:21, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: #> 3.0" drives (Amdek, Amstrad, etc.) use same connectors as "standard" 5.25", with "molex" power connector (I don't know what the CORRECT name is for that connector). It's part of the AMP (now TE) Mate-N-LOK series. But, I have some 3.25" drives that use same connectors as "standard" 3.5" drives, ("4 pin Berg"?) EXCEPT 5V and 12V are swapped in their positions in the coneectors! Not Berg, not even the same pitch. They're AMP Economy Interconnect connectors, with a 2.50mm pitch. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC QBUS Backplanes
On 17/04/2020 17:52, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I found a backplane. It says Digital on it but does not have an H- number. I also don;t find it listed in any of the lists I can find on the web. It has 8 A-B slots and 4 C-D slots. the Four C-D are on the bottom half of the backplane. I am assuming it is 18 bit and the C-D were intended for things like the 2 board RL controller. Is it quad height or hex height? Is there a picture anywhere? It sounds a bit like an H9278-A, which is a 22-bit 4 x 8 (ie quad height, 8 rows) backplane for a BA23 box. That has a mixture of Q22 and CD in part and Q22 on the rest, but the rows with CD are the top rows. http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: OT: Weller soldering irons
On 06/04/2020 00:22, Jon Elson wrote: On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope. It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has died. Is the sensor a separate component? Sadly, no. That's the first thing I thought of. The heater and sensor are integral with the stainless steel shaft and I can't see any way to get them out without destroying the shaft. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
OT: Weller soldering irons
A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope. It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has died. I discovered that only after resetting and then dismantling the control unit to check it out with a DVM, of course. Clearly I need either a new WP80 element, or a new soldering iron. I could get a WSP80 for far less than the cost of a new element for the WP80, but I'd get the element faster. So which, if any, is the better iron? What would you guys do? I begrudge paying UKP 92 for a new element. That's the cheapest I could find -- /half/ the most expensive price -- but just seems ludicrously extortionate for what amounts to a piece of swaged stainless steel tube with a short length of resistance wire and an even shorter length of thermocouple wire inside it. I could buy a whole new solder station with more bells and whistles, albeit of a "lesser brand", for less. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Design flaw in the SCSI spec?
On 08/01/2020 18:06, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Allowing accountants to do electrical engineering makes just as much sense as allowing sociologists to do brain surgery. Off topic, but allowing accountants to do accountancy isn't always much better. I recall the Christmas when our accountant insisted on an inventory of the electronics repair workshop. We kept our small components in a bank of drawers some 1.5m (around 5 feet) wide by about 1m (3 feet or so) high. Each drawer is just over 50mm (2") by 50mm. A drawer would hold several tens of 1/10W resistors, or some loose transistors or capacitors, or half a dozen ICs, or... And he wanted each one counted. And a cost given for each single item. And insisted that estimates were unacceptable for either count or cost. A few years later, when the company was about to be wound up, a colleague and I bought the bank of drawers and several other items for £100. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Two dead LK201 keyboards
On 28/12/2019 01:46, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I can get one and test it with an Apple keyboard, but that doesn't sound right. There aren't enough wires on a USB connector to allow you to speak the PS/2 protocol. And there are PS/2 to USB adapters (for old keyboards) that are the same size; clearly the old keyboards don't speak USB. Enough wires? +5V, ground, clock, data vs +5V, ground, D+, D- Those old adapters are definitely just passive wiring, and were commonly supplied with dual-standard mice. That's why they're green. I worked in the IT department of a large university and it caused a lot of confusion back in the day when they were common, when people expected them to convert any keyboard or mouse to PS/2, and found they didn't. They only work with devices that inherently support both protocols. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Introduction and need help bringing some pdp11's back
On 29/10/2019 16:28, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: The real problem is I'm trying to put an RQDX3 in there instead of the ESDI controller so I can boot off RX50's. And I have no idea which way all the various ribbon cables are supposed to go. Will any 50 pin cable work between the RQDX3 and the BA23 distribution bulkhead? Anything special about the 34ish pin cable that goes between the bulkhead and the RX50? So far when I try to boot all devices DU0-3 give me not yet ready. Welcome back! No, there's nothing special about either the 50-way ribbon cable or the 34-way ribbon cable. Just don't use a PC-style floppy cable with a twist in it. DEC did it the way God (and Alan Shugart) intended. But which distribution bulkhead have you got? I assume not an M9058, because that's a card with lots of options that goes in a Q-bus backplane and wants jumpers setting. Either way, you might find this file helpful if you want to work out what's going where: http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/RQDXn_pinout.pdf and maybe even a glance at this one: http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/M9058_schematic.pdf because it shows the relationship between the connectors and the signals a bit better. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
PDP-8/E MM8-E jumper settings
I've lost track of where the jumper settings are documented for the MM8-E, and I've got five sets here that have all been changed one way or another. Can anybody remind me where to find the settings for the three EMA jumper links on the G111? I want to set at least one board set to the lowest bank. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Cleaning an old keyboard
On 25/09/2019 16:29, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: If the reference is to: Lloyd S. Swenson, James M. Grimwood, Charles C. Alexander; "This New Ocean: A History of Project Mercury"; SP-4201; NASA; Washington; 1966 It is indeed in that. My copy isn't to hand and if it's not indexed then it would take a while to find, but that's where I first saw it. I'm pretty sure it's documented elsewhere too. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Cleaning an old keyboard
On 24/09/2019 07:30, Philip Belben via cctalk wrote: PS I wish people wouldn't say WD40 is not a lubricant. It is. The problem is that it is quite a heavy grease - suitable for (say) door hinges - but when it comes out of the can it looks like a fine oil I do wish people wouldn't say WD40 is a lubricant. It's not. It's a solvent - a light paraffin - carrying a small amount of wax - not grease - and was designed as a water displacer based on a degreaser. This is documented in NASA's official history of Project Mercury, for which it was invented. Try lubricating your fan bearings or bicycle chain with it and see how much it shortens the life, as it washes out the proper lubricant, as it's supposed to do. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RSTS collection in the UK
On 27/06/2019 07:53, Dave Wade wrote: Pete, Am I right in thinking Jim has no scanning facilities, and access is still one weekend in two. Pretty much. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RSTS collection in the UK
On 26/06/2019 22:52, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 6/26/19 1:00 PM, Dave Wade wrote: Could we forward to the UK DecTech list? Let's see if Pete Turnbull is able to make contact I have, but I've not yet made any arrangement to collect it all. It could be postponed until late July as the donor will be away, so there's time to arrange something if anyone can. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RSTS collection in the UK
Hi, Al. This sounds slightly familiar - Jay contacted me a year or two ago about a similar lot but the donor never got back to me. Anyway, I would be happy to collect these on behalf of Jim Austin, for the Computer Sheds: http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/ We'd be particularly interested in the RSTS stuff, as we have very little of that. Please pass on my contact details. On 25/06/2019 17:20, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: We received this offer, it probably makes more sense for someone in the UK to get the lot. Is there someone at a collecting institution that would like to take this on? Email me and I can forward your contact information to them. "I have a few disk packs available if you need them. (Please note I am in the UK). I also have a range of PDP-11 interface boards, a mix of dual, quad and Unibus. Is there anything in particular that you need? Finally I have a mass of RSTS related documentation, such as one copy of every edition of the US publication RSTS Porfessional magazine. Plus copies of RSTS and RT-11 operating system manuals, from RSTS Version 4a (1974) through to Version 10.1 (mid 1990s)." -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Network cards and Win98SE
On 14/05/2019 14:17, John Foust via cctalk wrote: At 03:02 AM 5/14/2019, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: On Mon, 13 May 2019, Grant Taylor wrote: "Gaming adapters" take a wired computer and connect it to a wireless network. That "adapter" has always been called a WLAN or wireless bridge. I've known the term "gaming adapter" because I knew it was the common name for what I'd call a dedicated wireless network bridge. Just another fine example of how gaming has come to dominate parts of the computer world. They who sell the most get to name the thing. But they probably don't. Almost every smart TV and settop box manufacturer sells a wired-to-wireless bridge dongle, and I'd bet there are more "wireless adapters" or "network adapters" sold for that purpose rather than gaming, simply because TVs, settop boxes and DVD/BluRay players outsell gaming machines. And then there are the slightly more sophisticated/robust ones sold by the likes of 3Com and Cisco, which I've never seen called anything other than a "wireless bridge". There are two or three groups at my university who regularly organise gaming parties, or sometimes called "LAN parties" here, and plenty of ad-hoc groups who also do so since the word got round that IT Services was willing to provide some support for them. I've never heard the term "gaming adapter" from them. Perhaps it's a piece of localised jargon. The AV Services department, who use quite a lot of them for large TV screens in lecture theatres, for remote lectures, teleconferencing, as bulletin boards, etc always call them "wireless adapters" or sometimes "network adapters". When "gaming adapter" was first mentioned, one of the first things that came to mind was the joystick-shaped gadget that fits over a keyboard to press the up/down/left/right keys when you waggle it. Searching "gaming adapter" throws up a lot of USB wireless dongles before wired Ethernet ones. I don't really care what you or Grant call it yourself, but at best the term is confusing, given it can mean at least two other things, and it's certainly not any sort of canonical name as has been suggested. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Network cards and Win98SE
On 13/05/2019 23:47, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 5/13/19 3:58 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I don't want to get into a long discussion; I merely wanted to point out that you're unlikely to find the term "gaming adapter" in Linux tech docs as they're not written for that audience. You /might/ not find the term in a Linux tech doc. But I'd be somewhat surprised if you didn't. Hmm. I've been a network manager for over 20 years, supporting tens of thousands of staff and students at a university where there's a lot of gaming activity and I've never heard the term gaming adapter before. The term could mean many things... > The first eight hits on a google search for "gaming adapter" are > directly relevant. The first few hits I get refer to a USB device to connect to a console to give it WiFi capability. That's not what Charles described, and what you referred to, which is a network bridge. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: TMSCP docs?
On 13/05/2019 08:51, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: The protocol specification for MSCP and TMSCP is available here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dsa/mscp/ You might also want to look at the implementation of MSCP and TMSCP in Simh: https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_rq.c https://github.com/simh/simh/blob/master/PDP11/pdp11_tq.c Not so useful for tape, but the original MSCP reference which Josh referred to, the "UDA50 Programmer's Documentation Kit" (QP-905-GZ comprising AA-L619A-TK, AA-L620A-TK, AA-L621A-TK), is on Bitsavers at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/uda50/ and at http://www.dunnington.info/public/MSCP/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RT-11 doesn't recognize my 3.5" floppy
On 06/05/2019 23:38, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: The release notes on bitsavers indicate that the RX33 was not supported until RT-11 V5.04. On May 6, 2019, at 6:20 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: I have installed an RQDX3 But, when I boot the system (with RT-11SJ V5.01), it can't see the drive at all. Not only was the RX33 not supported until 5.04, there's a bug in the MSCP DU driver that wasn't fixed until 5.03 (IIRC) or maybe 5.04, which means nothing on an RQDX3 can be guaranteed to work properly before that. It caused me a lot of grief, way back in 1994. See the files at http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/ and particularly http://www.dunnington.info/public/RQDX/DUX.TXT if you're interested. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Service for converting CD-ROMs into ISO files?
On 04/05/2019 21:36, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: Paul, VAX CD-ROMS generally are not ISO. ISO implies the ISO9660 file system, but many VAX CD ROMS are in native VMS Files-11 format. Some Windows utilities don't handle these so you need third party software to create an image of these CD's. Generally it has a .iso extension but as the content is not ISO9660 you can't mount it on Windows or Linux. Indeed, and the same is true of IRIX install CDs, which have an EFS filesystem. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RS2030 MIPS workstation
On 04/05/2019 02:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 5/3/19 3:22 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations? RISCos 4.52 src, incl monitor src up now under http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIPS/RISCos Once I can get the machine to stop wailing, that will be useful! -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RS2030 MIPS workstation
On 04/05/2019 01:54, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: I see we all were talking about the M2030 around 3 years ago http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2016-May/017829.html Some useful information in there, but I have the original MIPS keyboard and mouse. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RS2030 MIPS workstation
On 04/05/2019 01:04, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 5/3/19 4:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: So I'd like to know what the RAM spec really is, whether I need to reprogram the Dallas chip (and if so what goes where), and what the diagnostic numbers on the internal LED mean. Anyone? I thought I threw them all away, but i just found two 3020s and a 2030 with a full set of SIMMs which seems to get through POST. Will try dumping the NVRAM Thanks - that would be very useful, if you have time and suitable hardware. I read the pages at geekdot.com a couple of weeks ago, but I'd not seen the MAME data. I did find a manual about the ROM on Bitsavers recently, so with that ans the MAME info I can probably work out what some of those settings should be if necessary. Sadly nothing I've found says anything about the internal LED display, but my suspicion is that the error is to do with bad RAM. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
RS2030 MIPS workstation
Anyone know much about early MIPS workstations? I'm trying to get a MIPS RS2030 to boot, without much luck so far. It goes through the selftest but stops with the internal LED display at "5" accompanied by a continuous beep. Known problems: - The Dallas DS1287 battery is flat; I can hack a 3V lithium onto that. I assume it should still work to some extent even if the contents are lost? - The RAM is highly suspect. I think it needs a minimum of 8MB to start up. It has a good complement of SIPPs, but some of them are definitely non-original and are actually 30-pin SIMMs that somebody has done a rubbish job of soldering short stiff wires onto. So I'd like to know what the RAM spec really is, whether I need to reprogram the Dallas chip (and if so what goes where), and what the diagnostic numbers on the internal LED mean. Anyone? -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Mounting HP7970e 9-Trk 1/2" Tape Drive
On 05/02/2019 20:59, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 2/5/19 12:19 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: I learned that very quickly - If you open the front of the Drive and swing out the door with the electronics, drive motors etc, it is definitely heavy enough to tip a rack. I bolted the destination 19" rack down to the concrete floor with 3/8" bolts. It will not, I hope, soon go anywhere. After struggling years earlier with getting a Fujitsu drive into a rack by my lonesome, I was determined not to repeat the process. The rack, VTW, is from an old HP Storage Array, which has a nice anti-tip pullout on the bottom. I constructed a dolly for the HP drive that allows me to roll it around where I need it. It's low enough that it can slip under a table. Some years ago, Jay recommended a Genie Load Lifter to me (thank you!), and I was fortunate enough to get two of them as "new old stock" for about half price. They're relatively inexpensive and absolutely invaluable. Put a 200lb unit into the top of a full height rack? No problem. Shame I had to leave both behind when I left that employment (especially since they bought a third one but never used it)! -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-11 Memory
On 12/01/2019 17:39, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: One confusing part of this. Everything I have read today seems to say that the only difference between the 11/73 and the 11/83 in a MicroPDP-11 was the memory used. QBUS = 11/73 PMI = 11/83 Is this correct or not? No, not really, but sort of. Originally, the J11 chip was available in 15MHz and 18MHz versions. The 15MHz chips were used for 11/73 systems and the 18MHz ones for 11/83 systesm. To emphasise the difference, they had slightly different boot ROMs, and the 11/73 systems were shipped with QBus memory while the 11/83 systems were shipped with PMI memory, which is faster. So a factory-fresh 11/73 was always 15MHZ + QBus memory, whereas a factory-fresh 11/83 was always 18MHz with PMI memory, and significantly faster. In fact the PDP-11 and Hardware Help lists on DECUServe were full of people discussing the difference as many people didn't believe that you could use PMI memory with the processor from an 11/73 (you can), while others insisted that if you changed the memory an 11/73 became exactly an 11/83. In fact the XXDP diagnostics and RT-11 differentiate 11/73 from 11/83 purely on the basis of PMI memory detection. The J11 chip used on those systems was supposed to run at 20MHz or so from day one, but it didn't quite make it. Some, especially early on, would only run fully reliably at 15MHz, hence the above. I've got a later one in an 11/83 running at 20MHz, though. It doesn't gain an awful lot, but I changed the crystal, just because I could. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-11 Memory
On 12/01/2019 01:24, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: I’m pretty sure you could get the /23+, /53, /73, /83, and /93 in either a BA23 or a BA123. I have an actual badged BA23 pedestal for my /23+. I'm fairly certain all microPDP-11/23+ systems were only sold in BA23 boxes, and I think microPDP-11/73 and the later, cheaper, cut-down 11/53 were as well. But almost all the 11/83 systems I've ever seen were in BA123 boxes, though they did sell some in BA23 pedestals - I've got one. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-11 Memory
On 11/01/2019 23:58, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: On Fri, Jan 11, 2019 at 3:51 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? As sold, most likely. I don't think DEC ever configured any MicroPDP systems in a BA123 but no reason it doesn't work. Absolutely not so - there were very many microPDP-11/83 systems sold in BA123 cabinets, in fact probably more in BA123 than in BA23. The MicroPDP-11 System Maintenance Manual features the BA123 heavily throughout, as do other microPDP-11 manuals. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-11 Memory
On 11/01/2019 20:51, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Listed what I'm using in the beginning of this thread. Just CPU and Memory at this point. OK, I didn't see that - sorry. BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again. Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis Mine are all BA23. Wasn't the BA123 for the MicroVAX? No, it was introduced for the microPDP-11 series, and only later used for MicroVAX and MicroVAX-II. There are many microPDP-11/83 machines in BA123 cabinets, it was a very popular option because of the space for storage devices and the extra backplane slots. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-11 Memory
On 11/01/2019 19:59, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: MicroPDP box has first three slots A-B-C-D to support PMI memory and the rest are serpentine A-B. Even giving a bus grant problem, I can't see that causing a CSR error. I will probably have to dig out another box this weekend just to be sure there isn't a problem with the backplane. Without knowing exactly what cards you've got in there, it's hard to tell. There are quad-height cards that work only in straight (A.B.C.D) backplanes/slots, and quad cards that work in either straight or serpentine. There are cards that use or expect (or won't permit) certain signals on some pins which work fine in 18-bit backplanes but not 22-bit. There are things that will work in a BA11-S with H9276 backplane (which is what you had, if it really was a PDP-11/23plus) but not a BA23. You probably need to make a list of what you're using and check through the relevant Micronotes about compatibility. BTW, BA23 and BA123 microPDP-11 backplanes aren't the same - it's the first 4 slots that differ in a BA123, and slot 13 is different again. Take a look at http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Bogus "account hacked" message
On 08/01/2019 21:37, alan--- via cctalk wrote: There is a special place in hell for spammers. There is an even more special place lower in hell for web site builders that store plain-text passwords rather than a one-way salted hash of a password. Oh, there's a worse hell -- I hope -- for the sort of Unix sysadmin (I won't mention Aaron's name ;-)) put in charge of a sizeable HPC cluster, decided to password protect it to ensure only a certain set of users would have access, somehow copied the passwords they used on the main system, and stored them in plain text on a related machine for his access control. He no longer works for the enterprise in question. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-8/e
On 08/12/2018 09:55, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: Nice try Josh - close – you have to change the crystal first and you can’t get them. Both Farnell and Mouser UK have suitable crystals. They don't have to be the same physical size. I've changed several. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-8/e
On 07/12/2018 17:46, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 12/07/2018 11:38 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: Oh good how do you set them to 110 baud? Oh, WOW! Good catch, it only goes down to 300 baud! major screwup, ought to be reported to the developers. But wouldn't it be better to set the serial card in the PDP-8/E to something faster anyway? Although on one of the serial cards, that requires a crystal change, so though commonly done, may not be practical for Rod. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-8/e
On 07/12/2018 17:44, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 12/07/2018 11:22 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: Indeed, unless you need character pacing. Actually, with the correct settings of the serial port (xon/xoff or CTS pin) the serial port driver should do this, too, so cat would work. A PDP-8/E doesn't have a CTS pin and the loaders don't support XON/XOFF, though. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-8/e
On 07/12/2018 17:22, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: Indeed, unless you need character pacing. Thanks, Jonathan That's just what I was going to say :-) And also provided you remember which entry in /dev to redirect cat's output to, and what arcane stty command you need to set baud rate and word size on that, and that you have already edited the leader, trailer, and any junk off the tape file you downloaded from the 'net :-) On Fri, Dec 7, 2018 at 12:13 PM Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I just use ‘cat’. Seems to work fine. ;-) TTFN - Guy On Dec 7, 2018, at 4:57 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ and on mine: http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-8/e
On 07/12/2018 09:59, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote: OK now I need a little help. Does anybody know of a terminal emulation program that will simulate the reader on an ASR33? I know about RIM and BIN loaders but how and what to feed them I have long forgotten For a Unix or Linux machine, there's send and rsend, and several other utilities, that you can find at Kevin McQuiggin's web page: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pdp8/ and on mine: http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-8/ -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie
On 06/12/2018 12:28, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Looking up the SUN-1, I see that it lacked a graphics adapter, and was a text-only machine. I didn't know that. That alone means that it's not really what I think of when I think of a Sun workstation: no windowing system means that for me it's not really a workstation. That's simply not true. The first Sun 1 was actually designed as a CAD system, and did indeed have graphics. *Does* have graphics, I should say, as I've seen it. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: [rescue] Sun2/120 SunOS 3.2 suntools movie
On 06/12/2018 11:44, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 11:19 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 23:12, Chris Hanson wrote: It’s a Sun-2 so it’s not really arguable whether it’s the first ever Sun workstation: It’s not. But I am mildly curious what your definition of a Sun workstation is, if it excludes a 680x0 machine with Unix and a big monochome bitmap display... I don't think anyone is questioning that it's a workstation, and that it was made by Sun. I think the problem is over 'first' and that a Sun-2 is not going to be the 'first' model. Particularly since I know someone, not far from here, who has a Sun 1. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: George Keremedjiev
On 21/11/2018 22:46, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 11/21/18 5:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Ed, It is YOUR mail program that is doing the extraneous insertions, and then not showing them to you when you view your own messages. Seriously, YOUR mail program is inserting extraneous stuff. Everybody? but you sees it. I don't. I didn't see it until someone replied with a copy of the offending text included. I see the extra spaces, which are non-break spaces. I think the reason John was seeing uppercase A-circumflex characters is because Ed's email is using UTF-8; however John's email client isn't respecting the header that says so, and is using Western (ISO-8859-1). NBSP in UTF-8 is A-circumflex in Western. Amusingly, Bill's reply also contains a NBSP (after the full stop in "don't".), which displays as A-circumflex when I change the coding in my client. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Large Collection Of Dec/Digital PDP Documentation
On 06/11/2018 21:45, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: On Nov 6, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: Isn't RT-11 V4 orange? I'll have to check when I get home, but I'm pretty sure that's the set I have. (That and a blue binder set for V3 and a loose set of V2.) You might be right, my v3 & v4 sets went up to Paul Allen’s museum, I kept the v5.x set. V3 was definitely dark blue. Interesting. My sets of RT-11 V4.0 are all dark blue. The only V3 I've seen is light blue. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: RT-11 DY install
On 18/10/2018 13:22, Don Stalkowski via cctalk wrote: On Wed Oct 17 19:19:20 2018 cctalk@classiccmp.org (Jerry Weiss via cctalk) wrote: Note: Apparently the RY emulation won't load if more than 256K memory is specified as the DEC hardware did not support DMA in a 22bit box. I'm=20 entirely not sure why SIMH has to enforce this as its possible to work around (e.g. TSX+ supports buffering the IO). Anyone know how to override and load in SIMH? Jerry Thanks Jerry. That's "fixed" it. Since simh didn't complain about my "set ry enabled" I assumed (wrongly) that that wasn't the issue. Thanks to all the other's who replied. As Noel pointed out, real PDP-11s definitely work with RX02 subsystems in 22-bit systems. SIMH really ought to be able to do so regardless of 18-bit or 22-bit memory. The DY driver in RT-11, for example, simply knows to only use the bottom 256K for DMA I/O. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Single-height Qbus grant continuity PCB
On 14/08/2018 16:52, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: But I have here a little square board (the same size as the older Unibus grant continuity card) with just 2 pairs of pins linked. In the etch is a Digital logo (so I assume it's a real DEC product) and: LSI11 Grant Continuity G7272 5012564B Side 2 Has anyone come across that one before? No, not seen one of those. Not sure I want to, either: I like to keep the skin on my knuckles ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Needing help fixing an irix boot disk
On 05/07/2018 10:08, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: Long story short, a while ago I cloned the hd of a Fuel I got given (6.5.16, original installation from an iconic car designer, Bertone), and all was ok. The original hd was then left in place but unpowered, the cloned was upgraded to 6.5.22 to maintain the classic applications. getting more puzzled... the boot drive appeared readable, so why the scsi hard errors. Then I simply reconnected the original hd, and from that one boots with no issues... result, probably the last or both shutdowns while the Audigy was plugged were not so clean. Bottom line, anyone ever got in this situation and has some tips on what to do ? I had something similar happen to one of my Indys running 6.5.22 recently, and I ended up running standalone fx from an installation CD to map out the corrupt sector and then reinstalling. That wasn't too bad because I have all the necessary 6.5.x CDs as images on a server on the same network (so no tedious swapping of a dozen or so CDs) and I have a "selections" file for inst, with the things I need. But since you have a bootable drive, you might be able to bring the system up with both drives installed, booting from the 6.5.16 drive, and running fsck over the (unmounted) 6.5.22 drive. If that doesn't work, you could probably still create a selections file from the unbootable drive which you could use in the worst case of having to re-install. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC FPJ11-AA
On 02/07/2018 14:17, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 07/02/2018 08:34 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version (the -JE version is 4MB so too big). Or a pair of the 1 meg ore did they go away before the 11/93 came out? My oopsie; the MSV11-J is either 1MB or 2MB. I was thinking of MSV11-Q (which is QBus only). -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC FPJ11-AA
On 02/07/2018 03:38, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Bill Gunshannon > Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less than my > first born male child? The DEC PMI memories are the MSV11-J and (I think) the MSV11-R. The latter is rare, but the -J's can be found. Correct, but bear in mind that there are 4 versions of the MSV11-J; the -JB and -JC versions have different ASICs and don't support QBus CPUs. Specifically, they don't support block-mode transfers and don't work properly even as PMI memory except in an 11/84, while the -JE and JD versions support everything. Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version (the -JE version is 4MB so too big). -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC FPJ11-AA
On 01/07/2018 18:14, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: Speaking of PMI Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less than my first born male child? I have one 11/93 with 2 Meg and would love to bring it up to full memory. If you really mean 11/93 (as opposed to, say, 11/83), it would normally only use its on-board memory. It does work with PMI memory, but might it not be easier to just add the extra ICs on the CPU board? -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In!
On 29/06/2018 14:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: Yes, and the specified distance limit for RS232 is quite short, 50 feet or so. People have used RS232 over longer distances, of course, and gotten away with it. The RS-232-C standard doesn't actually specify a maximum distance. Section 3.1 *recommends* short cables up to 50 feet or 15 meters (with speeds up to 20kbps) for RS-232 (and the later-dated Foreword suggests RS-449 beyond that) but says that longer is fine so long as the load capacitance excluding source and cable is less than 2500pF. In practice, much depends on the baud rate and cable quality used. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: ISO: DECtape controller
On 16 May 2018, at 08:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >I was fortunate enough to acquire a TU56 this week, along with a TD8E >controller. However, the TU56 lacks the G888 flip-chips necessary to work >with the TD8E; I know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely >event that anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, or (b) a TC01, TC08 or TC11 >DECtape controller in any condition that they would be interested in >selling/trading for, please drop me a line. Thanks as always! Josh I have a similar problem. Has anyone re-engineered the G888?
Re: 8085 Dissasembly?
On 17/04/2018 14:25, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Apr 17, 2018 at 7:12 PM, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Bill Gunshannon wrote: Many of us think that the advent of the x86 architecture is what led to masochism. ... or masochism led to the x86 architecture. I think you are confused maybe. Wasn't it sadism? Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: SGI Indy power supply: identify this diode?
On 26/03/2018 17:07, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: Except it's not a zener, or at least not anything like those [ones Camiel and Bob suggested]. I took one out of another (working) supply, and I can tell it has a forward voltage of 0.2V, so it's presumably a Schottky diode of some sort. I can also tell it's not a low-voltage zener; the reverse breakdown voltage is more than 35V (the highest my bench supply goes up to). So I dug out my Avo 8, set to the 50µA range, hooked a matching diode from another Indy PSU up to a 300VDC supply via a couple of 1Mohm resistors and a 2Mohm pot as a voltage divider. I found that as I wound the pot up from zero volts, the reverse leakage current rose abruptly from 2-3µA to a few tens of µA at about 59V across the diode, and the voltage across it dropped a little as I wound the pot up further. So I think it's a Schottky rectifier diode, with a PIV rating probably between 50V and 60V. Of course I have no idea what the current rating might be, and I can't think of a simple safe way to work that out. Any comments? -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Identifying an aluminum panel
On 31/03/2018 02:32, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: I feel like I should know what this panel goes to...I found it in my garage when cleaning up. Any ideas? http://i.imgur.com/u4LMNqE.jpg The shape, apparent size, and the bends and screw holes make it look remarkably like the bottom panel of my PDP-8/L, except that an 8/L doesn't weigh 80lb and the panel would be yellow passivated zinc-plated rather than silvery. So I guess that's not much help ;-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Digitising collections of microfiche - Re: Looking for opinions...
On 29/03/2018 05:26, Shaun Halstead via cctalk wrote: Using the wrong filament orientation can cause some weird artifacts to appear on scanned images, because of the high magnification. I strongly suspect that an attempt using an LED source would face similar (and possibly worse) issues. Light source. Due to lensing requirements, LED's are probably out, unless a way can be found to suitably diffuse or blend the source without losing significant light. This requires a very strong light source. Yet there are plenty of LED light sources used in photomicroscopy so I don't believe it's that hard to do,which is why I suggested it. I've seen it done with a high-brightness 5mm LED, but if a bit more "oomph" or a larger emitting area is required, there are inexpensive 1W and 3W LEDs that look like they'd work. I'm no expert, but the biggest problem in photomicroscopy seems to be the spectrum, which isn't really an issue for monochrome microfiche. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Digitising collections of microfiche - Re: Looking for opinions...
On 29/03/2018 03:15, Zane Healy wrote: More and more, I view my Classic Computer collection as a hinderance to building a proper darkroom. Oddly enough, the main purpose of my PDP-11/44 these days is to hold a couple old enlargers that I don’t use. LOL! I wish I still had my De Vere 5x4 enlarger, but I've nowhere to put such a thing. Anyway, although I have access to some 5x4 Sinar equipment, the largest format I still have of my own is a couple of Mamiya 645s. OT anecdote: Some years ago a colleague asked if I'd take her wedding photos. I used to dislike doing that in the 70s and 80s so I wasn't keen on taking the hundreds of shots that seem to be the modern fashion. She persisted, so I said I would if she bought me the 22 megapixel digital back for my Mamiya 645 Pro. OK, she said, so I suggested she ought to check the price, after which she declined :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Digitising collections of microfiche - Re: Looking for opinions...
On 29/03/2018 00:19, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: I think Bellows would be the only sane way to approach this. You could do it with extension tubes, but they’re a pain. Another thing to consider is a light source. You’re going to need a fair amount of light, given the necessary extension to get the magnification. I was going to suggest a Bowens Illumitran (which I have) but that sort of exercise wouldn't be kind to the flash tube. LEDs would be my preferred solution; given the small area you might only need one bright white 5mm LED. The Illumitran uses bellows, but for a lot of DEC fiche, the page size is constant so extension tubes might actually be better - they won't slip. One of my favorite books, I think I’m up to 5 editions of it. :-) You’d be hard pressed to find a photography book with more data in it! My favourite is L.P.Clerc "Photography" (six volumes), but second is either M.J.Langford's 3-volume "Photography" set, mainly because I got it for college, or the "Ilford Photography Manual". -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: SGI Indy power supply: identify this diode?
On 26/03/2018 17:39, et...@757.org wrote: I'm hoping I don't have to breadboard a 1kV supply and find a lot of multi-megohm resistors to try and estimate the breakdown voltage - and then guess at the forward current rating. Is it possible to get the schematics? If only! That question has been asked many times on SGI forums like nekochan, for the Sony PSU (like this one) and also the Nidec. No-one has ever claimed to have seen one, and the chances are Sony wouldn't ever have released them. I have thought about tracing out the relevant area of the circuit, but it would take a while as the components are fairly densely packed, and I've got several other tasks on the agenda. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: SGI Indy power supply: identify this diode?
On 26/03/2018 16:08, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: 4B would be a 2.2V zener; 4A would be a 2.0V zener, so that’s odd indeed... That's the idea I had... Except it's not a zener, or at least not anything like those. I took one out of another (working) supply, and I can tell it has a forward voltage of 0.2V, so it's presumably a Schottky diode of some sort. I can also tell it's not a low-voltage zener; the reverse breakdown voltage is more than 35V (the highest my bench supply goes up to). I'm hoping I don't have to breadboard a 1kV supply and find a lot of multi-megohm resistors to try and estimate the breakdown voltage - and then guess at the forward current rating. On 3/24/18, 9:47 PM, "cctech on behalf of Pete Turnbull via cctech" wrote: After a recent power cut and a series of glitches as the power was restored, one of my Indys suffered a PSU failure. It's a Sony APS-81 171W unit, SGI P/N 060-0008-001. I've found half a dozen damaged parts, and I've identified a 150R 1W metal film resistor (R135), two trannies (Q105, a 2SC4304 and Q106, a 2SC2785) and a couple of small diodes. One of them (D116) appears to be a 6.2b2 (6.2V 1/2W) zener. The other one I'm not sure about. On the PCB it's labelled D113, and it's adjacent to the 2SC2785. It's very small, with a green band at the cathode end, and the legend "4B" in green - photos at https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/albums/72157667056183978 Oddly, another Sony PSU I looked at had a diode there that looked identical except it's marked "4A". I have an idea what it might be but if anyone actually knows what family or type/value this is, I'd be grateful for any insight. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
SGI Indy power supply: identify this diode?
After a recent power cut and a series of glitches as the power was restored, one of my Indys suffered a PSU failure. It's a Sony APS-81 171W unit, SGI P/N 060-0008-001. I've found half a dozen damaged parts, and I've identified a 150R 1W metal film resistor (R135), two trannies (Q105, a 2SC4304 and Q106, a 2SC2785) and a couple of small diodes. One of them (D116) appears to be a 6.2b2 (6.2V 1/2W) zener. The other one I'm not sure about. On the PCB it's labelled D113, and it's adjacent to the 2SC2785. It's very small, with a green band at the cathode end, and the legend "4B" in green - photos at https://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/albums/72157667056183978 Oddly, another Sony PSU I looked at had a diode there that looked identical except it's marked "4A". I have an idea what it might be but if anyone actually knows what family or type/value this is, I'd be grateful for any insight. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles
On 17/03/2018 00:28, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL programmers console which has LED indicator lamps. I have two 8/e machines, one of which has the original panel with incandescent lamps and one which is a slightly later panel (but the same type, just a later revision) which has been converted - I believe by DEC - to use LEDs. I've experimented with different LEDs, and found that some yellow ones look quite convincing, but as I remember using PDP-8s with red LEDs back in the day, I've kept the original red ones. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re:
On 30/01/2018 15:17, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: Does Isopropyl alcohol (um, same as propan-2-ol?) at 60C have enough vapor pressure to be a flammability issue? Yes. The boiling point of IPA is a little over 80C, and the flash point of 70% - 80% IPA (which would be a common strength) is much lower than 60C; depending on the concentration, it would be not much more than 20C. It's similar to ethanol in that regard. > Should it be done only under a fume hood, or something like that? Maybe, certainly for even small quantities make sure there are no flames or sparks nearby. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Ethernet cable (Was: Sun3 valuations?)
On 23/01/2018 16:48, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 01/23/2018 09:10 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: If you didn't locate the transceivers on those black marks you would have had terrible performance as that affects collisions. Timing (among other things like grounding) was very important with that version of ethernet hardware. It's my understanding that the marks (black bands or other markings on the sheath) were exactly one wavelength apart. Which from what I remember ~> understand from my ham radio days is quite important. No, that's quite wrong. The marks are every 2.5m (8.2 feet) wich IIRC is 1/19th of a wavelength apart, the point being to try to minimise the likelihood of connections being made where they'd suffer constructive (additive) interference and to prevent transceivers being too close together. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.
On 07/01/2018 07:57, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: I can't find anything suitable on MMC (https://www.mcmaster.com/#countersunk-head-machine-screws/=1b0p4yz ) so Chuck's probably right, machine them up. Maybe start from a long 5/16" shank hex-head bolt and put the countersink and 1/4-20 thread on. That should work. Thanks for the drawing for the kickplate. I'm assuming the plate goes on after the feet have been placed on the rack, and the #10 screws hold it all together. I'm guessing the kickplate is 16 guage sheetmetal..? Near enough, my micrometer says between 1.65mm and 1.70mm, the variation probably being due to the paint. For our American listeners, that's 16SWG (not AWG!). -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.
On 07/01/2018 01:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 01/06/2018 04:54 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC. I really must learn to think before putting finger to keyboard. If it's "quarter-twenty", that's a size shared by many refrigerators and other heavy household appliances. I think I even have a few of those mushroom-headed screws salvaged from one. Except the proper screws are countersink head, not mushroom, because mushroom heads would prevent the kickplate being fitted (and the shank is 5/16" - only the end is threaded 1/4-20). -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.
Sigh. Third time lucky. On 06/01/2018 16:11, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: Correction - it's 10-32. I found one of the screws, photo at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1006.JPG No, as would be obvious to anyone looking carefully at the photo (or the real thing!), it's 1/4" x 20 UNC. I really must learn to think before putting finger to keyboard. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.
On 06/01/2018 15:45, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: On 06/01/2018 12:04, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a bit and it ought to be closer. Looks good to me except... I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front panel pivot, but it seems the foot does actually use it. Yes, that's essential! But unlike in your drawing, the large screw that holds the stabiliser foot into that hole is a large-head countersunk screw, not a pan-head screw, and only the very bottom part of it is threaded, 8-32 IIRC. Correction - it's 10-32. I found one of the screws, photo at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1006.JPG The head diameter is 15.9mm (5/8") It's a 45 degree countersink with a flattened underside The shank diameter is 7.9mm (5/16") and 49mm long The threaded portion is 15mm long x 10-32 The overall length is 66.7mm (2-5/8") -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC H960 stabiliser feet. Have some questions.
On 06/01/2018 12:04, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: Using the measurements provided by Vince I've rejigged the drawing a bit and it ought to be closer. Looks good to me except... I had thought the hole in the front corner of the H960 was for a front panel pivot, but it seems the foot does actually use it. Yes, that's essential! But unlike in your drawing, the large screw that holds the stabiliser foot into that hole is a large-head countersunk screw, not a pan-head screw, and only the very bottom part of it is threaded, 8-32 IIRC. The main part is a plain shank to fit the holes for the front panel pivot and also the holes in the stabiliser; only the part protruding below the stabiliser is threaded. It's fitted with a shakeproof ("star") washer along with the nut, under the stabiliser. I took all the stabilisers off my racks because they're superfluous in my setup, and I can't remember where I put them, so I can't double-check. I don't have the kickplate nor access to measuring one, so that probably changes it a bit too. That I do have, so I took it off one of the racks and you'll find some (poor quality, from a phone that doesn't do close focus very well) pictures at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_0999.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1000.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1001.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1002.JPG http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/IMG_1003.JPG and a hastily drawn sketch of the dimensions at http://www.dunnington.cx/DEC/H960/kickplate/kickplate.pdf (NB This is a sketch, not a technical drawing, and is only approximately to scale). -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Old DEC PROM Images
On 02/12/2017 09:11, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: 2017-12-01 19:16 GMT+01:00 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk I am trying to bring some of my old PDP-11's back to life. Does anyone have or know of a source for PROM Images? I need the images for the M8189 (11/23+) and would also love to get the images for my DECTalk. Check here: https://web.archive.org/web/20140723115846/http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ Or better still, here: http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ There's a long story behind the change of domain name and why it's not been widely publicised, but the short version is that an ISP takeover screwed it up and it's parked for free until I sort out a permanent home - which never seems to get high enough up the priority list. Bill, if you want the latest version of the ROMs for an 11/23+ look for 23-453E4 and 23-454E4 which are 8Kbyte microPDP-11 images to fit in 2764 EPROMs - but if your M8189 currently has 2Kbyte EPROMs (likely, if it's in a BA11 box rather than BA23) you will need to change a jumper or two. Note that the files are binary images, not Intel HEX or any other encoded system, so make sure you download them with something that does not insert spurious carriage returns etc. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: PDP-8 chassis on eBay
On 07/11/2017 15:09, william degnan via cctalk wrote: The seller in the past sold an 8i I believe, it's probably an 8i. Bill On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Dave via cctalk wrote: Can you tell which PDP8 this goes with? Would an 8/e panel fit? Dave It's an 8/e (of which I have two, and a nearby friend has three or four more, as well as a couple of 8/Ms) chassis. It takes a big linear PSU and two 10-slot Omnibus backplanes. The 8/F and 8/M (OEM version, usually with a very simple turnkey panel) are shorter, take only one 10-slot Omnibus backplane, and have a completely different switch-mode PSU. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]
On 03/10/2017 01:04, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: Unfortunately there is no documentation to support Pete's recollection - if there is any I would like to see it. Well, actually, there is, though not for quite as early as I had those conversations. The company I was referring to was HCCS Associates, and although I can't find a copyright date for their original software, I can find pictures of the interfaces, clearly labelled "IDE", and one version of the software, called "IDE Manager". It's version 2.1, dated February 1990. They used mostly, but not exclusively, Connor drives, by the way. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#H http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/HCCS_IDE_A3000.html Another I can find is another company who made an interface for a slightly later machine from the same family, and one version does carry a date, also 1990. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/32bit_UpgradesH2Z/ICS_ideA.html The Watford Electronics IDE interface (called WE-IDE) for the same series of machines was released about the same time. The software is dated September 1989. They used Western Digital drives, amongst others. http://chrisacorns.computinghistory.org.uk/Software.html#W So there's clear proof that at least three companies in the UK were using the term IDE before (or at least by) 1990. I never heard it called anything else in that timeframe. -Original Message- From: Pete Turnbull [mailto:p...@dunnington.plus.com] Nope. I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who was creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: The origin of the phrases ATA and IDE [WAS:RE: formatting MFM drives on a IBM PC]
On 01/10/2017 20:46, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: As best I can tell WD began publically using the term IDE for its drives sometime around 1990 Nope. I recall conversations with a small-scale developer in the UK who was creating addons and accessories for the company I worked for (Acorn Computers) in 1987-1988, and he was touting IDE as best improvement (because simpler and cheaper to interface) on ST506/ST412 interface drives for the hard drive upgrades he was about to market. I recall having to ask what IDE stood for, at the time. So it must have been in common use, at least amongst developers, by then. By 1989 there were more people using "IDE" - by that name - than anything else in the markets I was involved in. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: Tips For Soldering a Surface Mount PLCC Socket
On 10/09/2017 20:55, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: I want to replace a PLCC84 surface mounted chip and take the opportunity to socket it. I have looked at some YouTube videos to see how others have done this. I am thinking that the best way is going to be to pre-solder the pads on the socket, place the socket on the board and then heat the pads on the socket from above with my finest tip. Even with good flux, you'll find that difficult to get right, as the solder on the socket pins won't be perfectly even and it won't sit properly flat on the PCB pads. You need decent solder paste, as sold in a small syringe, and the matching liquid flux. Be sparing with the paste and generous with the flux. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC ll/03 in 22 bit backplane
On 30/08/2017 17:02, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: On 8/30/2017 5:53 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctech wrote: Hope this helps... Yes, it does help. There are 3 issues that I am trying to resolve: 1. Running in 32kb of memory. If I use the 32kb MXV11 can I run RT11 V5.3? If it works in SIMH it should be just the same on real hardware - modulo any backplane bitness issues. 2. Bootstrap. I transferred the RT11 V5.3 to a DEC 535MB SCSI disk and was able to boot it using an Alphatronix SCSI controller, it is a Viking QDO rebadged. When I say is was able to boot it, I connected it to a 11/53 CPU in a BA23 box just to test it out. That has a J11 CPU, same as your 11/73, with the same registers. So I'd be guided by others' comments on booting the UC07. You could of course program the MSCP bootstrap and whatever else you need for setup into a pair of EPROMs but that's perhaps not a good place to start. 3. 18 Bit addressing. It appears that the H9270 backplane I have has been modified by DEC with wire wrap and soldered in connections. I really, really don't want to undo any of that. I may have to settle for just running an 11/23, 11/53 and 11/73 cpu in this box. I doubt if it was done by DEC, unless some failed servoid did it as a favour for the previous owner when upgrading it for the 11/23. It was a common user upgrade, though. -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: HP Draftmaster I, Power Supply repair
On 30/08/2017 11:44, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: I believe that is true for some countries, in other countries they did increase the voltage. I know it happened in the Netherlands, because we measured the voltages at our university¹s datacenter over that period. We (I'm in the UK) measured ours at over 255V on more than one occasion :-( -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: HP Draftmaster I, Power Supply repair
On 30/08/2017 11:19, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: The EU voltage "harmonisation" was mostly a paper exercise. The only real effect I observed is that dodgy British power distribution companies can sweat their assets more and let the voltage sag further in the extremeties of their network than they were previously allowed. Your internal wiring can reduce the voltage further. I had one place where there was over an ohm in the way, and firing up a 13A device brought the mains down to about 210v. I shudder to think where the I^2R heat went. But it saved you gas for the central heating :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: DEC ll/03 in 22 bit backplane
On 30/08/2017 05:29, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: I'll send along a picture of the rear of the back plane. I'm getting the impression I can't do what I want with the old cpu cards, M7270 and M7264. I had really hoped to be able to put together a simple system to demonstrate the differences in processing power between the 11/2 cpu, the 11/23 and the 11/73. They are all dual width cards and it would have been simple to swap them out. I think to do it I would need 2 boxes, one with a 16 bit backplane and the other with a 22 bit backplane. I don't see why you couldn't do what you want with the BA11-M and a little work, *providing* the Emulex UC07 controller works in an LSI-1103 system - and the manual (on Bitsavers) suggests it should. Section 1.6.3 says "The UC07/08 is compatible with the Q-Bus used on all LSI-11 ... series computers." First, you'd need to undo any backplane upgrade that made it 22-bit instead of 18-bit. BTW, there's no such thing as a 16-bit backplane, only 18-bit and 22-bit. BDAL17/18 are always bussed, to allow for the use of parity, even in 16-bit-CPU systems such as an 11/03. The only reason you need to do this is that the KD11-H and KD11-F processors put other signals on those lines, which the Emulex (and other 22-bit devices) won't like and will interfere with. The soldering you mentioned is almost certainly the extra four bus lines for the upgrade. It will be on both the B and D fingers of the backplane, because it's a serpentine backplane with Q-Bus on both sides. Look for wired connections between BC1, BD1, BE1, BF1 and between DC1, DD1, DE1, DF1. Check there no other extra connections; sometimes people added connections for other signals - for example I have a backplane with the SRUN signal on extra slots for diagnostics and faultfinding. Also check you don't have an H9270-Q, which is inherently 22-bit, instead of an H9270. I've never seen one, but presumably they exist. See http://www.dunnington.info/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis for a little more information. Next you'd need some sort of bootstrap. What's in the custom EPROMs on you MXV11-AC might do. Or might not, depending on whether it uses any 11/23 (KDF-11) specific instructions or diagnostics, and includes an MSCP bootstrap. The autoboot feature on the UC07 might do instead. Or might not. You'd have to experiment. If you do keep the MXV11-AC, you've already got 32KB of memory that works with any of your 11/03, 11/23, or 11/73 processors, and you have two DLV11-compatible serial ports. In fact the serial ports are virtually identical to half of a DLV11-J. Since RT11 rarely has any use for more than two, you probably don't need any more. If you keep the MXV11-AC and re-enable the memory, you only want another 32KB, and maybe not even that. I can't remember if RT11 5.3 will run in 32KB; it probably will, and I'm sure it would if suitably SYSGENned. I do remember RT11 5.6 either didn't or didn't unless it was seriously pared down. Don't use anything older than 5.3 because there are bugs in the MSCP drivers that prevent it working with just about anything other than RQDX1/2 interfaces. Or you could probably use the MSV11-P. It works in 18-bit systems, and should still work in a 16-bit (CPU) system, but obviously you'd only be using the bottom 64KB. If you want "period" memory to match the 11/03, you could find an MSV11-DC or -DD to use instead. The -DC has 32KB to supplement your MXV11-AC; the -DD has 64KB. The -EC and ED versions are the same boards but with parity circuitry added, which makes them less common and more expensive, but they'd also do what you want. Hope this helps... -- Pete Pete Turnbull
Re: This Is Such An Exciting Listing!
On 19/08/2017 00:46, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: It doesn’t beat a listing from 15 or so years ago from a mate of mine who advertised a polo mint (lifesavers to our US types) in a clear case as ‘mint in box (mint, in box)' Who remembers the sale of the air guitar? -- Pete Pete Turnbull