[biofuel] Kerosene...... biomass product

2002-11-26 Thread coachgeo3

Am I correct in understanding Kerosene is a product derived from 
nautral sources? That makes it a biomass fuel right?  Is the way it 
is made capable of being farmed etc. simular to growing crops that 
can be presseed into vegitable oils?

If sooo.. why are we not pushing Kerosene use?

Does it cause the same or worse caustic effects to the environment 
when used in a diesel engine? Is that one reasone why?

a slightly off topic question from all this..

If I go to one of the "Kerosene" pumps at fuel stations is it 
realy Kero? or is it diesel wihtout taxes added?


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Greg and April

Not to be patranizing or anything, but, why don't you provide your own?
Alot of people in the U.S. do.  All Swiss able bodied males are expected to
serve in the armed forces  for a time and from then on are reserve. They are
still expected to drill and practice every so often with thoes rifles.  We
are not.  Would you be willing to put in the extra time and effort?

Greg H.

- Original Message -
From: "motie_d" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 16:12
Subject: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy


 They also have government provided Assault Rifles in every home.
When you get our government to provide me with an Assault Rifle, I'll
give your idea more consideration.

Motie





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[biofuel] diesel... Envirnomental damage? but where?

2002-11-26 Thread coachgeo3

ok Im debating some issues within my self. You know trying to do 
the right thing in a small way.. but being logical in the 
process.

 I plan to run my vehicles(s) on Veg oil that is cut/thinned by 
?  I can't decide what to cut/thin it with.  If I choose 
diesel fuel am I making the environment worse.. Some with out 
thinking might immediately say yes bu...  I'm thinking· 
yeah. It hurts   ;-)


Here is some of the "stuff" in my head about the environment and 
diesel that this thinking has produced.

Iff I got this right "when Crude Oil is tweaked and 
converted with the goal of making Regular gasoline fuel; the process 
produces some waste products.  A big one of those waste products is 
the main ingredient of diesel fuel."  Is that correct?  Another way 
to say it is·... no matter how u cut and slice it.. when u make 
gasoline·. You make diesel too.  

Ok·· now the thinking based on the above·.. . Lets say the  
biodiesel fuelers etc.  by miracle cut dino-diesel use by 50% using 
biofuels... hmmm okk..  so the gasoline industry has not slowed down 
while this has happened soo. 50% of this waste product produced 
in the production of the gasoline; that once was slated for use in 
producing dino-diesel, now has to go somewhere else... where does it 
go?  a landfill?  yuk..  That is more caustic to the 
environment than burning it in diesel engines I would think.   

So if that is true.. Cutting the veg oil with diesel fuel is better 
than that diesel going in a land fill some day.  

O???..would this balance of unused dino-diesel end up being 
used in other areas that burns it more cleanly with less caustic 
results to the environment anyway.  Like heating fuel.  (does 
heating with it use it more cleanly and with less toxins than a 
diesel engine?)If so; then the waste product slated for dino-
diesel will still go there and be used up by things that are more 
efficient than Diesel vehicles.  If that is the case then I should 
stay with something Greener to cut/thin my veg. oil with?

What would this be, but that is for another post?

Look forwards to hearing from those who want to shoot holes in this 
thinking.

PS.  Please also CC your responces to my mail at 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and post them on here  as well.


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[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

> > milliontc  writes:
>
>>   I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the
>> following...  Direct Democracy
>
>I think direct democracy is a terrible idea.  People are already too
>poorly informed to vote knowledgeably on the 10 or so ballot
>initiatives we have every election here in California.  Do you want
>every complex issue decided by every schmoe with a remote control?
>Do you have time to study and vote in an informed way on _every_ issue
>that comes up?  Do you think the average person does?  To understand
>the details of the laws as they are proposed?  Big money is already
>corrupting the once-populist ballot initiative process, soon it will
>be as bad as the campaigns that candidates run.  In a true direct
>democracy, laws would be sold like soft drinks.  There is no way the
>mass market could be conducive to a real debate on the issues.
>
>The solution is to reform the election process.  Representative
>democracy is the only way to run a complex society in a way which can
>be both effective and responsive to the people.  As has been observed
>by many including Churchill, [representative] democracy is the worst
>form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.
>
>--
>Kelsey Jordahl

Such faith in We the People! Well, so much for democracy I suppose - 
folks is too dumb. Funny, that's what all the dictators say, and the 
corporatists too (so they use PR by the billions to "shape" this 
poor-quality clay and manufacture consent).

Representative democracy is not the only way. The Swiss example is 
one alternative, a much admired one, Churchill notwithstanding (not 
that he's much of an example).  There are quite a few others, and 
also many different forms of representative democracy.

How would you propose to reform the US election process? Endless 
talk, no result.

Have a look at the increasing role of polls and surveys in the last 
few decades. Check the impact on politicians and on policy-making. 
They use polls for guidance at least as much as votes - no, MUCH more 
than votes. But look how they use them - for guidance really? Only in 
a way, more to see what they can get away with and what they might 
not be able to get away with rather than for an indication of what 
The People actually want, and then to act accordingly.

Some talk on the two lists at the moment about the USDA's organic 
standards, how the initial proposals were just a marketing plan for 
corporate industrial "food", not even remotely organic, just an 
opening into a growing market for the usual suspects. The USDA, as 
Thor just said, "received more public comments (over a half a million 
IIRC), way more than any federal agency had ever received on any 
proposed standards." I think he does RC. The results were certainly 
significant, but it's still a sham, though much less of a sham than 
originally intended. What they thought they could get away with. None 
of which had anything to do with the election process. Yet it affects 
very many people in their daily lives, at a very basic level - the 
food they eat.

So government by poll might already be more significant than 
government by election, but you couldn't say either is exactly 
effective, not if democracy is your criterion. Despite Curtis's 
reservations about software, we (?) seem to trust the folks who rig 
the polls, though in fact their purpose is to sell the results, 
usually to corporations that can afford to pay for them, and indeed 
commission them. They're really part of the PR industry, and there's 
nothing democratic about the PR industry, quite the opposite.

Teledemocracy could certainly do one whole lot better than all this 
half-assed, cobbled-together, shoddy crap people call "democracy" 
these days. Churchill aside (please), others have said democracy 
hasn't been tried yet. Hard to argue with that. Now's the time. We 
have the technology.

Keith


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[biofuel] Forests - was Re: Back Online

2002-11-26 Thread Prairie Dog

Someone wrote:
"Loggers and professional Foresters KNOW what they are doing.
The 'Environmentalists' may have the best of intentions, but are near-
totally ignorant about the issues involved. "
--
Thanks so much for that enlightening comment.  Whew! At long last, the
environment is saved!  It's a darned good thing we have the loggers and
professional foresters, with all their new forestry management techniques;
I don't know HOW those foolish forests got along without humans for so long!

It's like those redwoods; they had the GALL to think they could grow that
big without us helping by chopping them down.  What were they thinking?

I guess the trees just didn't know they were unhealthy until we benevolent
humans came along and progressed far enough to figure out how sick the
forests were making themselves.  But now, with saws and chains and huge
rut-digging tires, we can go in there and get rid of all the trees that are
causing the ruckus.  Trouble-makers, they are!

Now if only we could get the big oil companies and car manufacturers to
teach the clouds and winds how wrong they are in trying to stay clean...

Joel R.
(tongue firmly in cheek, but at least my head isn't!  In my cheeks, that
is)


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[biofuels-biz] RE: Thor's post and others re: opening the industry

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

>I truly appreciate the great effort of Thor and many others in 
>providing sound suggestions on how to improve the relationship 
>between small producers, the NBB and the commercial side of the 
>industry.  I have been funneling these to individuals in the 
>industry and NBB whom I think are most receptive to new ideas and to 
>change.  I can't and don't speak for the industry but from my 
>personal perspective, I believe that some valid criticisms have been 
>levied and excellent improvements proposed.
>
>I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing 
>many of the specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with 
>the prolific nature of this group.  After some experience here, I 
>have a much better understanding of the efforts that are being made 
>to make top-quality fuel.  I also think I should provide some more 
>details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and should have been 
>more careful about sweeping statements in the first place).  While I 
>do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any 
>significant problems result from the use of homebrew.  There are 
>concerns but these are primarily perception rather than experience. 
>That said, I think the more that is done for quality control for 
>everyone involved in the production and distribution of biodiesel, 
>the better.  So I  hope that everyone's input and effort on these 
>fronts yields results.
>
>Happy Trails,
>
>Graham

Good on you Graham, thankyou. :-)

> ... but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group.

Yes indeed - we all have this problem. Please try to make an effort 
though, this is an important discussion, and your role could be 
highly significant, especially in what you're saying about relaying 
info. Only 40-70 hours a week? Oh well, you have plenty of time then! 
Sorry just teasing - well, sort of. I think quite a few of us here 
work much longer hours than that. I do about 100, I think Todd and 
Mark might say something similar. These groups certainly take up more 
time than I can afford. I know Todd struggles with that. Many of us 
do.

None of us has any resources. Industry has resources. Do you think it 
might be worth a rather small apportionment of such resources on the 
part of industry, the NBB or whatevr's suitable to provide time for 
people to interact with us here, and liaise with industry folks? Just 
a thought.

Regards

Keith


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[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Homebrew problems

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

This brings up a question I';ve had for a while-

are there other acids besides ffa, that are not water-soluble and are found 
in oils?

We had some particularly terrible oil that titrated at 13 ml, and I just 
couldn't bring myself to believe that it was ffa causing the high values in 
the titration, as that restaurant always had decent oil before that 
particular sample. I tried doing what you're describing- washing the oil 
and pH testing the wash water and also re-titrating the oil layer to see if 
the acidity was something caused by water-solubles (vinegar from cooking, 
or acids from food rotting), and it seemed that it was still something 
insoluble, presumably ffa.
thoughts?
mark





At 01:21 AM 11/27/2002 +, you wrote:
>The problems of quality of homebrew or commercial for that matter
>never seem to go away. As much as I would like to pretend that our
>bio is perfect, I want to share the latest of ours problems with the
>group in the hope that some one may benefit. I got a call that the
>fuel from the storage tank had clogged the filter on Tony's crane
>truck. Not with algae but with "grease". Bear in mind that it been
>over 30¡C. I went over the process that Tony had been using. We had
>been concentrating on fine tuning the separators to continually
>remove the glycerol as it formed, the fuel was completely reacted and
>the temperature was over the melting points of our longest fatty acid
>esters. The problem had to come from the washing. Now washing is a
>brutal affair compared with bubble washing and getting the emulsion
>to break involves acidifying the water(slightly I would have hoped.).
>I ran some thick "cream" from the bottom drain of the storage tank
>and tested it for FFA's by mixing with neutral water and titrating
>the layers. The water remained neutral but the "oil" took ² ml of
>standard NaOH . I deduced that I was dealing with FFA's not an
>inorganic acid. After performing a number of trials using acid
>catalysis and the three alcohols on hand. I found that the controls
>using alcohol alone reduced the acid number and clarified the
>product. Addition of < 5% of methanol without the addition of
>Sulphuric clarified the goop within 30 minutes  at ambient
>temperature.
>We modified the post washing stage . Drying was achieved by heating
>the fuel to 115¡ while pumping from the bottom and spraying over
>the "open" top. As the dry fuel cooled to <60¡C 2% methanol was added
>and the lid closed for recirculating. Once cool, ~30¡C, this fuel was
>pumped across to the storage vat.  I have neglected research on the
>washing stage, hopefully we can shorten this step as well. When the
>separators work well a 200l batch can be reacted and separated to
>completion in under an hour. I believe that the separators would have
>to spin much faster to be of use in post-wash separation. I have
>designed a simple vertical centrifuge to take the place of the dairy
>separators. If I get around to building it I'll post the results.
>
>
>
>Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>Biofuel at WebConX
>http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
>List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>
>
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Re: [biofuels-biz] Homebrew problems

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

This brings up a question I';ve had for a while-

are there other acids besides ffa, that are not water-soluble and are found 
in oils?

We had some particularly terrible oil that titrated at 13 ml, and I just 
couldn't bring myself to believe that it was ffa causing the high values in 
the titration, as that restaurant always had decent oil before that 
particular sample. I tried doing what you're describing- washing the oil 
and pH testing the wash water and also re-titrating the oil layer to see if 
the acidity was something caused by water-solubles (vinegar from cooking, 
or acids from food rotting), and it seemed that it was still something 
insoluble, presumably ffa.
thoughts?
mark





At 01:21 AM 11/27/2002 +, you wrote:
>The problems of quality of homebrew or commercial for that matter
>never seem to go away. As much as I would like to pretend that our
>bio is perfect, I want to share the latest of ours problems with the
>group in the hope that some one may benefit. I got a call that the
>fuel from the storage tank had clogged the filter on Tony's crane
>truck. Not with algae but with "grease". Bear in mind that it been
>over 30¡C. I went over the process that Tony had been using. We had
>been concentrating on fine tuning the separators to continually
>remove the glycerol as it formed, the fuel was completely reacted and
>the temperature was over the melting points of our longest fatty acid
>esters. The problem had to come from the washing. Now washing is a
>brutal affair compared with bubble washing and getting the emulsion
>to break involves acidifying the water(slightly I would have hoped.).
>I ran some thick "cream" from the bottom drain of the storage tank
>and tested it for FFA's by mixing with neutral water and titrating
>the layers. The water remained neutral but the "oil" took ² ml of
>standard NaOH . I deduced that I was dealing with FFA's not an
>inorganic acid. After performing a number of trials using acid
>catalysis and the three alcohols on hand. I found that the controls
>using alcohol alone reduced the acid number and clarified the
>product. Addition of < 5% of methanol without the addition of
>Sulphuric clarified the goop within 30 minutes  at ambient
>temperature.
>We modified the post washing stage . Drying was achieved by heating
>the fuel to 115¡ while pumping from the bottom and spraying over
>the "open" top. As the dry fuel cooled to <60¡C 2% methanol was added
>and the lid closed for recirculating. Once cool, ~30¡C, this fuel was
>pumped across to the storage vat.  I have neglected research on the
>washing stage, hopefully we can shorten this step as well. When the
>separators work well a 200l batch can be reacted and separated to
>completion in under an hour. I believe that the separators would have
>to spin much faster to be of use in post-wash separation. I have
>designed a simple vertical centrifuge to take the place of the dairy
>separators. If I get around to building it I'll post the results.
>
>
>
>Biofuels at Journey to Forever
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>Biofuel at WebConX
>http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
>List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


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[biofuel] Re: A response to ... eh-hem.... Big Industry? was Re: BIG

2002-11-26 Thread Thor Skov

[Cross-post from the Biofuels-biz list.]

Keith,

Great post.  You have my brain working.

Thanks for reminding me about the NBB’s focus on
fleets.  I had forgotten that.  However, I don’t
necessarily agree that small-scale producers are going
to eschew fleets.

But first, I think I may be tripping up on
definitions.  Where, really, does one draw the
distinction between a homebrewer, a small-scale
producer, and a large “corporate” producer?  It seems
to me that we might be trying to force various
attributes, scale of production, geographical reach,
business model, philosophy, community focus, into
single descriptors.  A homebrewer might be someone who
produces say, <100 gallons per week, on their
residential property.  A small-scale producer could be
a 2-5 person operation, using local feedstock, but as
a primary commercial enterprise.  Both of these
produce for local consumers.  But you could have a
large-scale local producer who also relies on local
feedstocks, especially in a large metropolitan area,
also for local consumption.  A business model such as
World Energy’s, on the other hand, is predicated on
quite different assumptions and operating procedures,
moving raw materials and finished products among
various markets; it’s much more akin to Enron than to
any localized business.

However, if we want to emphasize local energy
economies, then local producers, including small-scale
ones, should be thinking about fleets.  There’s no
reason why, for example, a Seattle-based producer
couldn’t supply the city school buses, or the
municipal transit.  I could still reasonably call them
small-scale at this level (granted I haven’t crunched
the numbers to see if the available WVO supply is
sufficient to meet the needs of these buyers).

You wrote that surveys show that Americans are willing
to pay extra for greener and more economical vehicles.
  Can you point me in the direction of some of these
surveys?  I would so like to believe this but I am
skeptical.  There is always a gulf between expressed
willingness to pay and actually paying.  And what I
see happening is precisely the opposite – most people
are more than willing to pay more for less green and
less economical vehicles.  Sure, there are a few who
buy high-efficiency diesels (yours truly) or hybrids,
but those are still a small market segment.

You may be correct that I am overestimating the
trepidation of the average consumer.  I acknowledge
that people I talk to about biodiesel (including those
who have never heard about it before) are generally
enthusiastic, but there’s a gulf between enthusiasm
and action.  You are undoubtedly correct that the
general public needs a different approach from fleet
managers, but remember that the general public
interacts with big business for most of its car needs
– purchase, fuel, parts.  Many people are uninformed
and busy.  So, to get mr and mrs suburbia to act (at
least in the short term) you need to reach these big
business interfaces.  If they can get a
diesel-electric hybrid at their dealer they are much
more likely to buy one than if they have to do a bunch
of research and go out of their way to find something.
  Similarly, if the local Texaco is selling BD, great.
If they have to drive somewhere out of the way and set
up a special account with a small distributor, that’s
a barrier.

Keith, I am still digesting your paragraph about a
decentralized diffused network.  I agree that it works
best for information exchange and resource sharing,
but for the purposes of lobbying, or communicating
with an entity such as the NBB, it does not.   If, as
you say, homebrewers may not be able to organize
because of internal disagreements, how would it be
possible for the NBB (or anyone else) to deal
effectively with them, at least in terms of reaching a
consensus on issues?  Maybe they don't need to as Mark
suggests.

I realize that you and others on this list have a much
greater familiarity with and feel for the composition
of the independent biodiesel community than do I.  I
also may be too conventional in my thinking, and I
will ponder your post further.  On the other hand,
perhaps we’re not disagreeing at all.  You support an
association of small-scale coops and other producers,
and that (I think) is really what I was talking about.
  Someone brewing 50 or 100 gallons a week in their
garage is not necessarily whom I would target.  Yet,
that person may be equally affected (in relative
terms), by changes in state and national laws or
agency regulations.

In other words, I don’t think that a movement to
localize economic activity, including energy
production, can often afford to ignore the wider
world.  National and state policies can have dramatic
impacts locally; consider just fuel taxes, licensing,
and testing requirements.

You wrote that the hundreds of biodieselers are
accessible through existing networks.  True, but I’m
not talking about a reaching in, rather a reaching
out.  I agree that small biodieselers should n

Re: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

The only problem with this pump is that it's an odd positive-mount pump. 
The pump is coupled to the motor shaft by way of a unique clamp and the 
shafts of both the motor and the pump head are slotted and fit together via 
a brass key. This means it won't just fit on any old salvage motor, though 
a few bucks to a machine shop to make an adaptor for a found pump will 
probably be cheaper than paying for Grainger's new dayton motor. not sure 
of rpm right off the top of my head.
Mark

At 10:30 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>girl mark,
>
>I looked at the pump at Grainger. They also sell the head (pump) separate
>from the motor, so if one already had a motor... What is the RPMs on the you
>have?
>
>---
>Jesse Parris  |  studio53  |  53 maitland rd  |  stamford, ct  06906
>203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/
>- Original Message -
>From: "girl mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:58 PM
>Subject: RE: [biofuel] electrical pump
>
>
> > I have a Teel fryer filter pump from Grainger, and I think it's
> > Grainger  model number
> > 7P098 
>
>
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[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

>Hello;
>
>Good point about third world...
>
>I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as
>a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple
>marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to
>afford it will be the very poor through aid programs
>or the well-to-do.
>
>I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as
>WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger
>chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the
>profitability of restaurants.
>
>Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio
>diesel will be big business.  My advise to the small
>producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be
>eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less
>pleasant means).
>
>Best Regards
>
>Alex Landels

Lots been written here about the potential of local-niche production 
and much besides. There are many local-type scenarios where the big 
guys won't be able to compete, not just on a price basis, there are 
often other factors at work. Growth in at least some of these areas 
is already quite rapid. On-farm production, especially from 
integrated farms rather than monocroppers, is another such case, also 
growing rapidly. Costs can be essentially zero, and direct costs 
aside, on-farm economics will tend to keep outside stuff outside, no 
benefit.

It doesn't just depend on WVO availability, though that's a few 
billion gallons a year in the US. In most industrialized countries 
collection levels are about 10%. It's unlikely to be optimized, no 
matter how valuable it gets or how much the Big Guys might be after 
it, unless collection starts at the local level, at point of 
production. This applies to virtually all waste recycling. And it 
leaves plenty of scope for small-scale operators and DIYers who're 
also working at that level. Take a closer look at some of the things 
in Mark's post about local-level initiatives.

Much also been written about Big Biodiesel, and people expecting to 
be brushed aside when the time comes. There could already be too much 
local stuff going on for that to happen quite so easily. If the 
sharks come too close they could get torn to pieces by piranhas.

For a comparison, local farmers' markets and CSAs are growing apace, 
and there's absolutely nothing that big agribiz interests can do 
about it, much as I'm sure they'd like to. The USDA organic standards 
a few posts have mentioned were such an attempt, but very many real 
organic farms have simply opted out and continue dealing with their 
local markets without any problems. This is also capitalism at work, 
you know - more so than big, centralized corporatism is, and it's 
more American anyway.

Best

Keith





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[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> Sorry, Motie, but trust an American to see the whole complicated 
> Swiss set-up in terms of guns, first and foremost. The Swiss 
> certainly don't see it that way. I believe most Swiss would see 
your 
> comment on their democratic set-up as bizarre. I've spent time 
there 
> and never heard anyone even mentioning guns.

 Different perspectives entirely. How to explain?
How about if I told that the issue about guns, is not really about 
guns, but about whether or not our Constitution really means 
anything? It's just a piece of paper unless you have the means to 
back it up.

> Same in Sweden, same in 
> Holland, etc etc - they just don't talk about it, no big secret, of 
> course defence is important but it's no big deal. The US gun issue 
> doesn't exist there. But for you it's an issue. In fact the Swiss 
> comparison is a most pertinent one in this discussion, if POC 
hadn't 
> made that point I would have. I'll make another one - the Swiss 
have 
> the oldest democracy in the world, and they modelled their modern 
> constitution 150 years ago on that of the United States of America. 
> So much of your guns debate has to do with the Constitution, 
doesn't 
> it?

 You have an amazing insight! It's ALL about the Constitution, and 
the people who ignore it. The Bill of Rights in particular is being 
ignored, with less pretense about it every day. From election fraud 
to illegal searches of our homes and false arrests on bogus 
violations, to Judges and Attorneys committing perjury in Court. We 
are living in a Police State, and the world doesn't seem to know. 
From Bill Clinton being aquitted for lying under Oath to a Judge, to 
the extremely bold decision to allow the Democrats to put Trafficant 
on the ballot in direct opposition to Election Law. Now the Homeland 
Security Bill basically suspends our Constitution under Color of Law, 
on top of the Patriot Act.
 When the Nazis rounded up the Jews for their trip to the showers, 
they were unable to resist. Some of us have decided that we won't 
give up our defensive tools until we are out of ammo.
 So, yes, it's about our Constitution!


> Now, instead of looking at them through a US lens, try standing 
> halfway between and making a less one-sided comparison.

The Swiss leaders are abiding by their Constitution, so they haven't 
a pressing concern about a need to defend themselves?
> 
> PLEASE, this is NOT an invitation to dive head-first into a row, 
nor 
> even a discussion, about guns and America! Guns are a distraction 
> from this issue, not relevant, and, whatever Americans might feel 
> about it, believe me, the rest of us do not want such a discussion 
> here. Please mark my words, I'll kill any guns thread immediately, 
> moderator's action.

I didn't really want to go there on this list, but felt obligated to 
respond. This is my last mention of the topic.
> 
> Keith

Respectfully,
Motie


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Re: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread studio53

girl mark,

I looked at the pump at Grainger. They also sell the head (pump) separate
from the motor, so if one already had a motor... What is the RPMs on the you
have?

---
Jesse Parris  |  studio53  |  53 maitland rd  |  stamford, ct  06906
203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/
- Original Message -
From: "girl mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:58 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] electrical pump


> I have a Teel fryer filter pump from Grainger, and I think it's
> Grainger  model number
> 7P098 


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[biofuel] Archives server back online

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Martin's archives is back online again, as he promised.

Thanks Martin!

Keith



>Martin's having problems with the nnytech.net archive server, down
>till Tuesday.
>
>So, sorry to say, until then it's back to the horrors of Yahoo if you
>need archive material. Or wait till Tuesday! (MUCH better idea!)
>
>Yahoo's archive is accessible (sort of) from the message board page.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messages
>Yahoo! Groups : biofuel Messages
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuels-biz/messages
>Yahoo! Groups : biofuels-biz Messages
>
>Regards
>
>Keith
>
>
> >From: "Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "'Steve Spence'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: server outage
> >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:18:19 -0500
> >
> >Hello
> >
> >The server is down; I can fix it on Tuesday night.
> >
> >First time it's been out in 345 days L
> >
> >I was hoping it would make a year without me [physically] touching it.
> >
> >
> >
> >I have to buy some new hardware: motherboard and RAM.
> >
> >Sorry Keith, Steve
> >
> >---
> >
> >Martin Klingensmith
> >
> >nnytech.net
> >
> >infoarchive.net


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[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Greg and April" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not to be patranizing or anything, but, why don't you provide your 
own?
> Alot of people in the U.S. do.  All Swiss able bodied males are 
expected to
> serve in the armed forces  for a time and from then on are reserve. 
They are
> still expected to drill and practice every so often with thoes 
rifles.  We
> are not.  Would you be willing to put in the extra time and effort?
> 
> Greg H.
> 

 I think this may be getting well off the topic of Biofuels, but OK.

 The first reason I don't provide my own is economic. Just a license 
for possesion (Transfer Tax) is $500. Then I have to find one that is 
for sale, and was registered before...1986? This would likely be 
another $3000. I've already done my time in our armed forces, and 
still occasionally participate as an 'unofficial' consultant on some 
matters that are not for public disclosure.
 I participate in Drill and Practice (though not with Assault Rifles) 
as an instructor to a much more involved level than most of our 
National Guard troops, and all at my own personal expense.
 Even if I were to receive an Assault Rifle from the government, I 
would likely still be opposed to Mob Rule(Direct Democracy). We are 
much closer to that than I am comfortable with right now. I would 
prefer to return to the observance of Constitutional Laws.

Ogeeshi Da,
Motie


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[biofuel] regulations was: Re:Homebrewer on a soapbox!

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

Thor, as far as straw men go, I wasn't just replying to your post, there's 
been a lot of this kind of talk lately. I am very interested in seeing more 
face to face, local connections in the homebrewer community, but would be 
very suspicious of any situation where an organization would be formed that 
would speak for 'the homebrewer community', and that for most people would 
be the reason for seeing such an organization formed. again, it's important 
to realize that's a very different thing than seeing such an organization 
for small producers, who of course can use all the organization that they 
can get.

anyway, it's amusing that in any talk that happens about organizing 
homebrewers to protect us from (from ourselves, from regulations, um, I 
however keep  reading it as protecting ourselves from ourselves), people 
seem to forget that we aren't threatened by much in reality.  Here's a 
couple of comments:

Thor wrote:
>My focus is really more on independent producers who
>are making a (small) business of biodiesel.  But, my
>point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are
>affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that
>giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard
>by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good
>idea.   You donât have to sell me on the merits of
>decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects,
>and empowered community members.  I work with those
>every day.  But you may need to sell some individuals
>in power on those concepts if you are worried about
>them messing things up.  Since you express great
>concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and
>rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know
>that you want to be left the f*#k alone?  I would
>suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are
>not going to do it.

mark:
  that';s potential regulation, not actual and current. Regulation will 
happen if we invite it, it won't if we don't. Homebrewer national 
organizations will invite it, that;s the nature of that kind of politics. 
Taxes are another matter.



>Mark, you wrote, ãand I know for a fact that many of
>the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in
>common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying
>organizations or whatnot.ä  I certainly canât gainsay
>that.  But I wonder if you have enough in common as
>homebrewers to see to your collective interest as
>homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing
>uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations.  The
>possible organization and regulation you are agonizing
>about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people
>who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in
>the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the
>original organic farmers.  Adoption of technology goes
>through phases, and if something becomes more
>lucrative as a business, more people will enter and
>want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards,
>etc.  Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers
>go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes.
>Sadly, I doubt that is likely.  The anecdotes you have
>related bolster that view.

Me:
One thing that people forget is that there's very few ways that homebrewers 
can effectively be regulated unless it';s something we ask for and consent 
to. Our berkeley co-op, and other general membership coops, because it is 
such a public operation, could be regulated out of existence very easily. 
Small producers, because they are in business and they distribute fuel to 
the public, can be regulated. But few independent homebrewers could be, if 
they're not making some public big deal out of the existence of their 
processors. I mean, we use scrap and waste for chrissakes, and working in 
our garages and backyards for the most part. What do we have to be afraid 
of, if we don't invite it to happen to us first?.

One way I could see this regulation happening is through regulation of the 
sale of methanol. But knowing the racecar engine builders I've met through 
buying methanol, or the racing fuels /methanol dealer I buy it from 
currently (the guy gave me a discount because 'you're a fuel geek, like 
us', yikes!), they are also a very independent lot who would probably still 
be a resource for homebrewers if this were to happen.

The only other way we could be found and regulated, I could imagine is tank 
dipping for tax evasion purposes, (see the recent welsh drivers bust 
story)etc- not likely in the US. Of course there's lots of ways that some 
powers that be could make our lives miserable. But in reality, there's very 
few ways to find out if someone's making biodiesel 'without regulation'. 
Shortages of oil (in case of high demand by very large producers) would 
make our lives harder, but the reality is that it still isn't a huge 
problem- the advantages of decentralized and localized resources. So, 
again, why would I want to talk to the NBB as part of a homebrewers' 
organization if I;m making fuel for my own use???



At 01:41 PM 11/26/2002 -080

Re: [biofuel] Methane Digestor

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

I know a local grad student who is as obsessed with methane digesters as I 
am with biodiesel.  ('cept that he's getting whatever grad students get in 
financial aid for it and I rarely get anything and my topic of interest is 
simpler).his name is Karl Hartmann at UC Davis in the agricultural 
engineering department. His work is with crop wastes, not human waste, 
though, although it all applies as far as I can tell.

Otherwise, I did hear of someone else's version of a human 
waste-fueled  methane digester that used a marine toilet (macerator toilet, 
yup, it does what you think it does, grind up poop into little itty bitty 
pieces) in place of the house's conventional toilet. it';s probably more 
energy-intensive to go out and buy and electrify a macerator (they are 12 v 
though) than, say, composting human waste as a way to deal with it, but 
getting energy from the stuff is enticing to geeks like us no doubt.



At 01:01 AM 11/26/2002 +0100, you wrote:

>I made some info available for download a while ago and
>it is still there,
>
>http://energy.saving.nu/bagdigesters/
>
>Hakan
>
>At 04:07 PM 11/25/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >   Hello,
> >We have a constructed wetland at our school that processes our sewage from
> >roughly 70 people.  The system has a settling tank where solids are
> >seperated out before sending the fluid "waste" into the wetland
> >gardens.  Every year or so, the solids build up and need to be pumped
> >out.  I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a way to build a digestor
> >to be able to extract methane from the solid waste?  I have seen systems
> >in Cuba using cow manure, but never with human waste.  Any ideas?
> >thanks,
> >jk
> >Jack Kenworthy
> >Sustainable Systems Director
> >The Cape Eleuthera Island School
> >242-359-7625 ph. 242-359-7697 fax
> >www.islandschool.org
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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>
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[biofuel] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Thor Skov

[Cross-post from the Biofuels-biz list.]

Mark,

Well, my post certain punched a lot of your buttons.
I appreciate your taking the time to reply so
passionately.

As should be obvious by now, I am not familiar with
the homebrewing community beyond the few individuals I
know regionally who make BD and my own as yet
unrealized pretensions towards making my own fuel for
a while now.

I agree with you that homebrewers, small producers,
and large producers have different agendas and
(possibly) overlapping interests.  I am sure you read
my posts carefully Mark, so you know that I never
suggested homebrewers “give anything up to a
representative, or a representative organization.”  In
fact, I said specifically that most homebrewers would
probably not be interested in belonging to a
“biodiesel association,” and that no such association
could ever replace local ties.  I also NEVER said
anything about, as you put it, “unagreed-to
representatives, etc!), so please, no matter how
agitated you feel, try to refrain from setting up
straw men.

My focus is really more on independent producers who
are making a (small) business of biodiesel.  But, my
point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are
affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that
giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard
by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good
idea.   You don’t have to sell me on the merits of
decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects,
and empowered community members.  I work with those
every day.  But you may need to sell some individuals
in power on those concepts if you are worried about
them messing things up.  Since you express great
concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and
rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know
that you want to be left the f*#k alone?  I would
suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are
not going to do it.

Mark, you wrote, “and I know for a fact that many of
the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in
common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying
organizations or whatnot.”  I certainly can’t gainsay
that.  But I wonder if you have enough in common as
homebrewers to see to your collective interest as
homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing
uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations.  The
possible organization and regulation you are agonizing
about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people
who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in
the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the
original organic farmers.  Adoption of technology goes
through phases, and if something becomes more
lucrative as a business, more people will enter and
want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards,
etc.  Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers
go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes.
Sadly, I doubt that is likely.  The anecdotes you have
related bolster that view.

WRT certification, although I didn’t say so
specifically, I was actually thinking about
third-party, private-sector (nonprofit) certification,
not a government program.  When I mentioned organic
certification I was thinking of Oregon Tilth, CCOF,
etc., not USDA organic standards.  What happened to
organics was lamentable, but I think it had less to do
with poor government than it did with the fact that
the proposed regs were developed at a time when
agribusiness (General Mills, ADM, Birdseye) was
realizing the huge growth potential in organic foods
and was jumping into the market with both feet.  The
standards proposed in ’98 reflected their interests
(and those of corporate farms), more than it did the
pioneers of organics.

What is interesting was the reaction.  USDA received
more public comments (over a half a million IIRC), way
more than any federal agency had ever received on any
proposed standards.  How did this happen?  It happened
because these voices of the public were focused
through the efforts of, yup, organizations—food
cooperatives, environmental organizations, local farm
and agriculture organizations.  They got the word out
and got it out well.  Now, in part, this reflected the
effectiveness of diffused networks of activists and
interested consumers.  But it also reflected a LOT of
hard work by formal organizations.

Back to certification.  I come from a background
studying certification and labeling, mostly of forest
products and food.  I don’t know if certification and
labeling would work for biodiesel, whether or not it
would be a good idea, what the effect on consumer
behavior would be.  I threw it out as a possibility.
The thing is, I don’t think anyone else knows either,
including you and Keith.  No one has done (to my
knowledge, and I’d love to be wrong on this ‘cause I
like hard data) market research on how consumers make
choices on alternative fuels for their automobiles,
what influencing their decision-making, how
risk-averse they are, and so on.  I originally stated
that I thought they are risk-averse and Keith a

Re: [biofuel] When you're a Geek and know what a computer can do .... You vote "no" Was: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

>The problem with that system would be ... who would be the "system
>administrator" of such a system???
>
>The Admin would have almost Godlike powers  since, being in charge of
>how votes are processes, would be able to make anyone he chooses ... "win"
>the elections.

How would that differ from the system currently employed for voting 
in the US? Over which I heard many complaints in your last elections, 
including many bitter complaints from people working with them, not 
just using them. You don't even get a bit of paper, AFAIK.

It's just a software problem, no big deal to make it open and 
accountable. (Just don't let M$ have anything to do with it!) Easier 
than trying to do that with politicians and their campaigns!

>And then later, through the media  ahem "explain"
>why the dude won.

You mean like they do now?

>I don't think I like the idea of having one single person
>(or two or three guys) control "what the will of the people is".

That's what you have now, with less than transparent transparency. 
How much of your government has anything much to do with the will of 
the people, as opposed to the will of massive vested interests, 
immensely wealthy, powerful and anti-democratic corporate entities 
that have the money to buy whatever government they want? 
Corporations have more human rights than you do, mere humans are only 
second-class citizens now - more "voting" power than you do too. 
That's the whole problem, it's not a democracy anymore, it's been 
bought off. How are you mere humans going to take it back? And you 
should, you really should!

>You think
>power is concentrated NOW ... you try wait until system administrator's got
>the power to elect or not elect at the "click of a mouse".

You're not looking at it right Curtis. You're not looking at the 
current "system" right either, though I think you see it clearly 
enough otherwise.

Hey James, you've really puzzled the Americans, LOL! Or some of them 
anyway. Best explain the nuts and bolts a bit maybe.

Best

Keith


>Nope, not me,
>
>Curtis
>Computer Geek
>
>Get your free newsletter at
>http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>  I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
>  Direct Democracy
>
>   Teledemocracy   -   E-Democracy
>
>
>.The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform
>government to include the   voices of citizens in the
>policy making process.


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Fwd: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread Neoteric Biofuels Inc



Begin forwarded message:

> From: Edward Beggs <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue Nov 26, 2002  10:35:40 AM America/Vancouver
> To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [biofuel] electrical pump
>
> We have one listed on our site that is 12 or 24V and can be used for  
> heavy oils. There is a screen on the inlet, and  even fuel station  
> style dispensing nozzle (shutoff).
>
> Edward Beggs
> Neoteric Biofuels Inc
> British Columbia, Canada
>
> http://www.biofuels.ca
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 08:47 AM, studio53 wrote:
>
>> I see a lot of those things on ebay. Are you talking about 12V or  
>> 120V?
>> -- 
>> -
>> Jesse Parris  |  studio53  |  53 maitland rd  |  stamford, ct  06906
>> 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "John Venema" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:32 AM
>> Subject: [biofuel] electrical pump
>>
>>
>>> I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly  
>>> contaminated WVO.
>>> My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>> John Venema
>>
>>
>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
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>> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>>
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[biofuels-biz] [biofuel] Bio Fuel Business

2002-11-26 Thread Hakan Falk

[Cross-post from the Biofuel list.]

(Dammit, I seem to have tied my arms in a knot at the elbows... - Keith)

All the discussions about bio fuel business, inspired me to write the
following piece for publishing on our web site. This is an early draft and
I thought that the members of this list are the best ones for getting
feedback.

Hakan

Possibilities of bio fuel business organization.
-
by Hakan Falk, Energy Saving Now.

It is and has been some attempt to discuss bio fuel business on the bio
fuel list at http://journeytoforever.org/ . The subject is very interesting
and very important.. I am therefore try to putting down my thoughts about
it, colored by my professional experiences. I have kept to "ready to use"
technologies, since that is the only feasible for short and long term
implementation.

During the last 35 years I have been directly engaged in around 12 startups
and consulting in some more. Of the 12 startups, 5 has been as employee and
7 in partnership with others. 10 of them have resulted in profitable
businesses and 3 are still active on their own as small companies. The
resulting 7 have in one way or other been taken over by a larger
organization. The largest venture started with 3 founders 1978 and had 250
people with sales companies in 9 European countries, when it was sold to
the world market leader 1982. The two failures was one where I only
invested money and had no background to participate, I invested money in
some friends fashion business. The other one was my last business and the
financial/emotional losses was very large. It turned out that I had a
dishonest partner and an auditor/advisor that were less than honest and
this in a business environment that is both difficult and corrupted.
Shortly said, I was taken for a ride.

I have briefly given my background, so you will understand where I come
from and be able to evaluate my analyses with that in your mind. I will in
the following express my opinion of the market elements and the possible
future,

I want to tell you that renewable energy in some respects are already big
businesses and will be huge. As example I want to mention the Danish Wind
Mill generator business that started around 20 years ago and who is now
market leaders in large generators and with more than 1 billion dollar in
annual revenue and is only scratch the surface of the potential. The same
can be said about Solar Power, but this business is spread on many
suppliers. The PVC cell market is now mature enough for the large companies
and you already see the Japanese emerging as potential market leaders. It
is two fundamentally different businesses, one with large projects and few
clients and the other one an end user market with many customers /
installers and relatively few manufacturers.

The traditional fossil fuel market, is a market with a few producers and a
huge client base. It is dominated by a few companies who financed the
prospecting and the needed large investments in production facilities. It
is however not difficult to see that the traditional fossil fuel will have
several severe price increases during the next two decades and cause more
of what we now know as energy crises. The pressures will be tremendous on
replacement fuels and energy efficiency.

The Bio Fuel market is quite different than the mentioned markets. It will
always be dependent on many small producers of the raw material and have to
distribute to the same huge client base as fossil fuels. The bio fuel
market can be divided in groups, depending on necessary production
facilities and investments in those. The first division is based on the end
use and will be transport, electricity and heating of buildings.

Transport as the first group turns to be relational to engine technologies
on short and medium term, namely gasoline or diesel engines. Hybrids will
emerge, but they are also going to be divided into the same engine base.
Small EV vehicles will start to emerge with a slow penetration and in
typical city and short distance applications. The major battle ground on
short and medium term will be around the gasoline and diesel technologies,
or on bio fuel basis ethanol and bio diesel/SVO (Straight Vegetable oil).
WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) will give a small contribution, but are more of a
smart and profitable recycling method of waste, than a major part of
covering the energy needs.

Bio fuel or rather bio diesel or SVO will be the dominant replacement
player in electricity generation. Because of its size, consumption and
stationary nature, preheated SVO seems to be a logical choice. Hydrogen and
fuel cells will be a high profile development but are not in a stage were
it will be a major player on short and medium term. Electricity generation
with diesel engines is a very large market and it is hard to see ethanol
playing any significant part.

Heating of buildings is a huge market that must play a very important part.
Co

RE: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

I have a Teel fryer filter pump from Grainger, and I think it's 
Grainger  model number
7P098 .
It's pricey at $200, but it's been totally bulletproof- it's self-priming 
and can be run dry, and handles grease well as that's what it's designed 
for. It's a little bit slow (4 gpm, rated in oil at 4 gpm though which I 
think is what a lot of 'faster' pumps designed for other fluids seem 
comparable to)

  It's only available in AC. But having seen alot of SVO-ers struggling 
with DC transfer diesel pumps for grease acquisition, I'm pretty happy with 
this pump and a long extenstion cord (or big inverter?).
For DC applications, I'm interested in experimenting with a marine 
macerator toilet pump- it's designed to handle thick matter, and it's fast 
supposedly. I don't think the ones I've seen are designed to be run dry. 
They're made by shurflo and one other company commonly, at about $130. I 
haven't tried this out, though I want to.


At 12:59 PM 11/26/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>and there is this:
>
>http://www.pumps-ez.com/pumps/0056064_0056064_1.html
>
>the list seems extensive.
>
>James Slayden
>
>On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Juan Boveda wrote:
>
> > Hello John
> >
> > I would suggest an used engine oil pump from a junk yard, some of them
> > comes with a coarse filter, over it if you wish, you could add a metalic
> > mesh in front of it and an electrical drill to drive the pump.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Juan
> >
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated
> > WVO.
> > My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions?
> >
> > John Venema
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > 
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> >
> > Biofuels list archives:
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/
> >
> > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> >
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
>650636f.jpg
>6506419.jpg
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the 
>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[biofuels-biz] Archives server back online

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Martin's archives is back online again, as he promised.

Thanks Martin!

Keith



>Martin's having problems with the nnytech.net archive server, down
>till Tuesday.
>
>So, sorry to say, until then it's back to the horrors of Yahoo if you
>need archive material. Or wait till Tuesday! (MUCH better idea!)
>
>Yahoo's archive is accessible (sort of) from the message board page.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messages
>Yahoo! Groups : biofuel Messages
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuels-biz/messages
>Yahoo! Groups : biofuels-biz Messages
>
>Regards
>
>Keith
>
>
> >From: "Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> > "'Steve Spence'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: server outage
> >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:18:19 -0500
> >
> >Hello
> >
> >The server is down; I can fix it on Tuesday night.
> >
> >First time it's been out in 345 days L
> >
> >I was hoping it would make a year without me [physically] touching it.
> >
> >
> >
> >I have to buy some new hardware: motherboard and RAM.
> >
> >Sorry Keith, Steve
> >
> >---
> >
> >Martin Klingensmith
> >
> >nnytech.net
> >
> >infoarchive.net


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Re: [biofuel] Stars in their eyes

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Alex Landels wrote:

>Hello;
>
>Good point about third world...
>
>I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel
>and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones
>who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid
>programs or the well-to-do.
>
>I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become
>commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that
>can improve the profitability of restaurants.
>
>Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big
>business.  My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and
>be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less
>pleasant means).
>
>Best Regards

Lots been written here about the potential of local-niche production 
and much besides. There are many local-type scenarios where the big 
guys won't be able to compete, not just on a price basis, there are 
often other factors at work. Growth in at least some of these areas 
is already quite rapid. On-farm production, especially from 
integrated farms rather than monocroppers, is another such case, also 
growing rapidly. Costs can be essentially zero, and direct costs 
aside, on-farm economics will tend to keep outside stuff outside, no 
benefit.

It doesn't just depend on WVO availability, though that's a few 
billion gallons a year in the US. In most industrialized countries 
collection levels are about 10%. It's unlikely to be optimized, no 
matter how valuable it gets or how much the Big Guys might be after 
it, unless collection starts at the local level, at point of 
production. This applies to virtually all waste recycling. And it 
leaves plenty of scope for small-scale operators and DIYers who're 
also working at that level. Take a closer look at some of the things 
in Mark's post about local-level initiatives.

Much also been written about Big Biodiesel, and people expecting to 
be brushed aside when the time comes. There could already be too much 
local stuff going on for that to happen quite so easily. If the 
sharks come too close they could get torn to pieces by piranhas.

For a comparison, local farmers' markets and CSAs are growing apace, 
and there's absolutely nothing that big agribiz interests can do 
about it, much as I'm sure they'd like to. The USDA organic standards 
a few posts have mentioned were such an attempt, but very many real 
organic farms have simply opted out and continue dealing with their 
local markets without any problems. This is also capitalism at work, 
you know - more so than big, centralized corporatism is, and it's 
more American anyway.

Best

Keith


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[biofuel] RE: Thor's post and others re: opening the industry

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

>I truly appreciate the great effort of Thor and many others in 
>providing sound suggestions on how to improve the relationship 
>between small producers, the NBB and the commercial side of the 
>industry.  I have been funneling these to individuals in the 
>industry and NBB whom I think are most receptive to new ideas and to 
>change.  I can't and don't speak for the industry but from my 
>personal perspective, I believe that some valid criticisms have been 
>levied and excellent improvements proposed.
>
>I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing 
>many of the specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with 
>the prolific nature of this group.  After some experience here, I 
>have a much better understanding of the efforts that are being made 
>to make top-quality fuel.  I also think I should provide some more 
>details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and should have been 
>more careful about sweeping statements in the first place).  While I 
>do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any 
>significant problems result from the use of homebrew.  There are 
>concerns but these are primarily perception rather than experience. 
>That said, I think the more that is done for quality control for 
>everyone involved in the production and distribution of biodiesel, 
>the better.  So I  hope that everyone's input and effort on these 
>fronts yields results.
>
>Happy Trails,
>
>Graham

Good on you Graham, thankyou. :-)

> ... but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group.

Yes indeed - we all have this problem. Please try to make an effort 
though, this is an important discussion, and your role could be 
highly significant, especially in what you're saying about relaying 
info. Only 40-70 hours a week? Oh well, you have plenty of time then! 
Sorry just teasing - well, sort of. I think quite a few of us here 
work much longer hours than that. I do about 100, I think Todd and 
Mark might say something similar. These groups certainly take up more 
time than I can afford. I know Todd struggles with that. Many of us 
do.

None of us has any resources. Industry has resources. Do you think it 
might be worth a rather small apportionment of such resources on the 
part of industry, the NBB or whatevr's suitable to provide time for 
people to interact with us here, and liaise with industry folks? Just 
a thought.

Regards

Keith


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[biofuels-biz] regulations was: Re:Homebrewer on a soapbox!

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

Thor, as far as straw men go, I wasn't just replying to your post, there's 
been a lot of this kind of talk lately. I am very interested in seeing more 
face to face, local connections in the homebrewer community, but would be 
very suspicious of any situation where an organization would be formed that 
would speak for 'the homebrewer community', and that for most people would 
be the reason for seeing such an organization formed. again, it's important 
to realize that's a very different thing than seeing such an organization 
for small producers, who of course can use all the organization that they 
can get.

anyway, it's amusing that in any talk that happens about organizing 
homebrewers to protect us from (from ourselves, from regulations, um, I 
however keep  reading it as protecting ourselves from ourselves), people 
seem to forget that we aren't threatened by much in reality.  Here's a 
couple of comments:

Thor wrote:
>My focus is really more on independent producers who
>are making a (small) business of biodiesel.  But, my
>point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are
>affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that
>giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard
>by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good
>idea.   You donât have to sell me on the merits of
>decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects,
>and empowered community members.  I work with those
>every day.  But you may need to sell some individuals
>in power on those concepts if you are worried about
>them messing things up.  Since you express great
>concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and
>rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know
>that you want to be left the f*#k alone?  I would
>suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are
>not going to do it.

mark:
  that';s potential regulation, not actual and current. Regulation will 
happen if we invite it, it won't if we don't. Homebrewer national 
organizations will invite it, that;s the nature of that kind of politics. 
Taxes are another matter.



>Mark, you wrote, ãand I know for a fact that many of
>the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in
>common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying
>organizations or whatnot.ä  I certainly canât gainsay
>that.  But I wonder if you have enough in common as
>homebrewers to see to your collective interest as
>homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing
>uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations.  The
>possible organization and regulation you are agonizing
>about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people
>who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in
>the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the
>original organic farmers.  Adoption of technology goes
>through phases, and if something becomes more
>lucrative as a business, more people will enter and
>want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards,
>etc.  Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers
>go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes.
>Sadly, I doubt that is likely.  The anecdotes you have
>related bolster that view.

Me:
One thing that people forget is that there's very few ways that homebrewers 
can effectively be regulated unless it';s something we ask for and consent 
to. Our berkeley co-op, and other general membership coops, because it is 
such a public operation, could be regulated out of existence very easily. 
Small producers, because they are in business and they distribute fuel to 
the public, can be regulated. But few independent homebrewers could be, if 
they're not making some public big deal out of the existence of their 
processors. I mean, we use scrap and waste for chrissakes, and working in 
our garages and backyards for the most part. What do we have to be afraid 
of, if we don't invite it to happen to us first?.

One way I could see this regulation happening is through regulation of the 
sale of methanol. But knowing the racecar engine builders I've met through 
buying methanol, or the racing fuels /methanol dealer I buy it from 
currently (the guy gave me a discount because 'you're a fuel geek, like 
us', yikes!), they are also a very independent lot who would probably still 
be a resource for homebrewers if this were to happen.

The only other way we could be found and regulated, I could imagine is tank 
dipping for tax evasion purposes, (see the recent welsh drivers bust 
story)etc- not likely in the US. Of course there's lots of ways that some 
powers that be could make our lives miserable. But in reality, there's very 
few ways to find out if someone's making biodiesel 'without regulation'. 
Shortages of oil (in case of high demand by very large producers) would 
make our lives harder, but the reality is that it still isn't a huge 
problem- the advantages of decentralized and localized resources. So, 
again, why would I want to talk to the NBB as part of a homebrewers' 
organization if I;m making fuel for my own use???



At 01:41 PM 11/26/2002 -080

[biofuels-biz] RE: Thor's post and others re: opening the industry

2002-11-26 Thread Graham Noyes

I truly appreciate the great effort of Thor and many others in providing sound 
suggestions on how to improve the relationship between small producers, the NBB 
and the commercial side of the industry.  I have been funneling these to 
individuals in the industry and NBB whom I think are most receptive to new 
ideas and to change.  I can't and don't speak for the industry but from my 
personal perspective, I believe that some valid criticisms have been levied and 
excellent improvements proposed.  

I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing many of the 
specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of 
this group.  After some experience here, I have a much better understanding of 
the efforts that are being made to make top-quality fuel.  I also think I 
should provide some more details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and 
should have been more careful about sweeping statements in the first place).  
While I do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any 
significant problems result from the use of homebrew.  There are concerns but 
these are primarily perception rather than experience.  That said, I think the 
more that is done for quality control for everyone involved in the production 
and distribution of biodiesel, the better.  So I  hope that everyone's input 
and effort on these fronts yields results.

Happy Trails,

Graham  


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[biofuels-biz] Homebrew problems

2002-11-26 Thread gjkimlin

The problems of quality of homebrew or commercial for that matter 
never seem to go away. As much as I would like to pretend that our 
bio is perfect, I want to share the latest of ours problems with the 
group in the hope that some one may benefit. I got a call that the 
fuel from the storage tank had clogged the filter on Tony's crane 
truck. Not with algae but with "grease". Bear in mind that it been 
over 30¡C. I went over the process that Tony had been using. We had 
been concentrating on fine tuning the separators to continually 
remove the glycerol as it formed, the fuel was completely reacted and 
the temperature was over the melting points of our longest fatty acid 
esters. The problem had to come from the washing. Now washing is a 
brutal affair compared with bubble washing and getting the emulsion 
to break involves acidifying the water(slightly I would have hoped.). 
I ran some thick "cream" from the bottom drain of the storage tank 
and tested it for FFA's by mixing with neutral water and titrating 
the layers. The water remained neutral but the "oil" took ² ml of 
standard NaOH . I deduced that I was dealing with FFA's not an 
inorganic acid. After performing a number of trials using acid 
catalysis and the three alcohols on hand. I found that the controls 
using alcohol alone reduced the acid number and clarified the 
product. Addition of < 5% of methanol without the addition of 
Sulphuric clarified the goop within 30 minutes  at ambient 
temperature. 
We modified the post washing stage . Drying was achieved by heating 
the fuel to 115¡ while pumping from the bottom and spraying over 
the "open" top. As the dry fuel cooled to <60¡C 2% methanol was added 
and the lid closed for recirculating. Once cool, ~30¡C, this fuel was 
pumped across to the storage vat.  I have neglected research on the 
washing stage, hopefully we can shorten this step as well. When the 
separators work well a 200l batch can be reacted and separated to 
completion in under an hour. I believe that the separators would have 
to spin much faster to be of use in post-wash separation. I have 
designed a simple vertical centrifuge to take the place of the dairy 
separators. If I get around to building it I'll post the results.



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Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

>
>
>  ..the interests that make the big
>campaign donations.   Any signs of these
>two campaigns combining their efforts? Teledemocracy and
>campaign
>finance reform? Perthaps they should.
>
> cfr would be a good platform. We'd need someone to to prepare a
>blueprint for the operation. Not me. Out of my league sorry to say.
>What about you?
>J

Well, James, out of my league too. Not on my route either! Granny D's 
American, of course, where the problem is perhaps most heavily 
focused, and which would surely set a shining example should it be 
solved there. Of which there are signs, indeed, Granny D herself not 
least among them. She's more doughty than any of us.

http://www.grannyd.com/
Granny D. Home Page

Your work in Gibralter is really interesting and worthwhile, Gib 
could be the ideal place to start such a thing, and you've chosen the 
right context for it, IMO.

We're very interested in all kinds of networking, and Journey to 
Forever's includes a lot of networking - from this kind here, to 
schools, and local 3rd World schools, same with communities and 
community projects, local NGOs that we work with. Could be room for 
it. We'll see.

Regards

Keith


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Alex Landels

Hi;

I agree with the emphasis on third world empowerment.

As things stand now small bio diesel producers can
make some headway (ie money) due to a surplus of raw
fuel stocks ie. WVO. 

Once bio diesel becomes competitive and/or necessary, 
free or inexpensive fuel stocks will vanish. The
owners of raw fuel stock will demand money for its
removable--capitalism will maintain its logic. 

When free fuel stocks vanish it will be interesting to
see if bio diesel maintain its inexpensive nature or
will be marketed as a super fuel and charged out at a
premium--my money is on the later.

Best regards...
Alex landels







--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mark
> 
> Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-)
> 
> Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make.
> I'm grateful for 
> the useful distinction between homebrewers and small
> producers. We're 
> perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the
> same people, as 
> they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are.
> I've noticed some 
> of the differences you point to, not the way
> homebrewers generally 
> behave. I've also been rather startled at some of
> the ambitious plans 
> by people with no experience at all. Often they make
> the right sort 
> of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them:
> they'll be small 
> producers for exactly as long as it takes them to
> swell into big 
> producers. And don't get in the way. There have been
> signs of that 
> same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd
> too. I like Todd's 
> type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to
> become a 
> mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another
> local production 
> somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes
> the difference 
> is probably empowerment, as you say, and
> decentralized alternatives.
> 
> We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities,
> and indeed we no 
> longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in
> general, wherever, 
> however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come
> back to where we 
> started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World
> project, an 
> appropriate technology project. The technology
> development we've 
> talked of certainly benefits what you can do with
> biofuels in a 3rd 
> World rural community, as opposed to say three years
> ago, or in any 
> rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or
> back-yard - we don't 
> see appropriate technology as something for only the
> 3rd World. So 
> that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on
> community 
> self-reliance, and community and individual
> empowerment, whether in 
> 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same
> as with our other 
> projects.
> 
> That doesn't mean we're necessarily against
> corporations and the big, 
> centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to
> work with them - but 
> not FOR them, and where they work against community
> self-reliance and 
> empowerment, as they do, whether by design or
> neglect, we'll work to 
> counter that. Graham's very strange idea that
> biofuelers who don't 
> support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are
> "anti-biofuels" really 
> made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of
> sad really. I do 
> hope Graham is following all these discussions and
> taking it all 
> aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is,
> not a waste at 
> all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
> >Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be
> long.
> >
> >my comments interspersed between two different
> writers' posts:
> >
> >
> >
> >thor:
> > >  And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need
> > > >to organize to present a coherent voice.  Itís
> > > >unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with
> hundreds
> > > >of independent producers individually.
> >
> >Mark:
> >
> >One thing I've been learning lately is that the
> biodiesel movement is
> >diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself
> people to both teach about
> >homebrew, and do general education about emissions
> and benefits of
> >biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people
> doing this work of
> >publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I
> don't even bother to
> >talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do
> my classes for
> >homebrewers, unless I'm asked.
> >
> >Now, would someone please remind me why I
> should as a homebrewer have to
> >deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my
> life as a homebrewer, I
> >certainly don't need them. They certainly are
> trying to get our (and the
> >general public's) support, through their new
> registry of biodiesel
> >organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel
> Boosters registry. What's in it
> >for us, after I've been reading things about how
> bad homebrew is on their
> >website since 1998 or whenever it was?
> >
> >But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious
> to most people- since
> >when are small producers and homebrewers lumped
> together on one team?
> >People certainly go from 

[biofuel] Bio Fuel Business

2002-11-26 Thread Hakan Falk


All the discussions about bio fuel business, inspired me to write the 
following piece for publishing on our web site. This is an early draft and 
I thought that the members of this list are the best ones for getting 
feedback.

Hakan

Possibilities of bio fuel business organization.
-
by Hakan Falk, Energy Saving Now.

It is and has been some attempt to discuss bio fuel business on the bio 
fuel list at http://journeytoforever.org/ . The subject is very interesting 
and very important.. I am therefore try to putting down my thoughts about 
it, colored by my professional experiences. I have kept to "ready to use" 
technologies, since that is the only feasible for short and long term 
implementation.

During the last 35 years I have been directly engaged in around 12 startups 
and consulting in some more. Of the 12 startups, 5 has been as employee and 
7 in partnership with others. 10 of them have resulted in profitable 
businesses and 3 are still active on their own as small companies. The 
resulting 7 have in one way or other been taken over by a larger 
organization. The largest venture started with 3 founders 1978 and had 250 
people with sales companies in 9 European countries, when it was sold to 
the world market leader 1982. The two failures was one where I only 
invested money and had no background to participate, I invested money in 
some friends fashion business. The other one was my last business and the 
financial/emotional losses was very large. It turned out that I had a 
dishonest partner and an auditor/advisor that were less than honest and 
this in a business environment that is both difficult and corrupted. 
Shortly said, I was taken for a ride.

I have briefly given my background, so you will understand where I come 
from and be able to evaluate my analyses with that in your mind. I will in 
the following express my opinion of the market elements and the possible 
future,

I want to tell you that renewable energy in some respects are already big 
businesses and will be huge. As example I want to mention the Danish Wind 
Mill generator business that started around 20 years ago and who is now 
market leaders in large generators and with more than 1 billion dollar in 
annual revenue and is only scratch the surface of the potential. The same 
can be said about Solar Power, but this business is spread on many 
suppliers. The PVC cell market is now mature enough for the large companies 
and you already see the Japanese emerging as potential market leaders. It 
is two fundamentally different businesses, one with large projects and few 
clients and the other one an end user market with many customers / 
installers and relatively few manufacturers.

The traditional fossil fuel market, is a market with a few producers and a 
huge client base. It is dominated by a few companies who financed the 
prospecting and the needed large investments in production facilities. It 
is however not difficult to see that the traditional fossil fuel will have 
several severe price increases during the next two decades and cause more 
of what we now know as energy crises. The pressures will be tremendous on 
replacement fuels and energy efficiency.

The Bio Fuel market is quite different than the mentioned markets. It will 
always be dependent on many small producers of the raw material and have to 
distribute to the same huge client base as fossil fuels. The bio fuel 
market can be divided in groups, depending on necessary production 
facilities and investments in those. The first division is based on the end 
use and will be transport, electricity and heating of buildings.

Transport as the first group turns to be relational to engine technologies 
on short and medium term, namely gasoline or diesel engines. Hybrids will 
emerge, but they are also going to be divided into the same engine base. 
Small EV vehicles will start to emerge with a slow penetration and in 
typical city and short distance applications. The major battle ground on 
short and medium term will be around the gasoline and diesel technologies, 
or on bio fuel basis ethanol and bio diesel/SVO (Straight Vegetable oil). 
WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) will give a small contribution, but are more of a 
smart and profitable recycling method of waste, than a major part of 
covering the energy needs.

Bio fuel or rather bio diesel or SVO will be the dominant replacement 
player in electricity generation. Because of its size, consumption and 
stationary nature, preheated SVO seems to be a logical choice. Hydrogen and 
fuel cells will be a high profile development but are not in a stage were 
it will be a major player on short and medium term. Electricity generation 
with diesel engines is a very large market and it is hard to see ethanol 
playing any significant part.

Heating of buildings is a huge market that must play a very important part. 
Cooling is an other use, but is possible to shut do

[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Kelsey Jordahl

> milliontc  writes:

>   I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the
> following...  Direct Democracy

I think direct democracy is a terrible idea.  People are already too
poorly informed to vote knowledgeably on the 10 or so ballot
initiatives we have every election here in California.  Do you want
every complex issue decided by every schmoe with a remote control?
Do you have time to study and vote in an informed way on _every_ issue
that comes up?  Do you think the average person does?  To understand
the details of the laws as they are proposed?  Big money is already
corrupting the once-populist ballot initiative process, soon it will
be as bad as the campaigns that candidates run.  In a true direct
democracy, laws would be sold like soft drinks.  There is no way the
mass market could be conducive to a real debate on the issues.

The solution is to reform the election process.  Representative
democracy is the only way to run a complex society in a way which can
be both effective and responsive to the people.  As has been observed
by many including Churchill, [representative] democracy is the worst
form of government, except for all the others that have been tried.

-- 
Kelsey Jordahl


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Re: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Party of Citizens

The Swiss have had direct democracy for over 100 years and only have about
3 referenda per year though they can have as many as they want.
Responsible democratic citizens are not so stupid as to change the laws
every day.

POC

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, motie_d wrote:

> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > There should be some test of minimal mental competence before
> people can
> > vote and those who do not know the difference between a mob and a
> society
> > of responsible citizens would fail the test.
> >
> > POC
> >
>
>  Perhaps you can clarify the distinctions for us? In my opinion, a
> society of responsible citizens should be able to have some agreed-on
> rules to live by, instead of arbitrary decisions with no continuity.
> We'd have to live our lives conducting Polls to figure out what is
> acceptable today.
>
>  I prefer to have the rules known in advance, and expect people to
> stay within them. These rules are called laws.
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
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>
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>
>
>


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[biofuel] Stars in their eyes

2002-11-26 Thread wannabeloved_2

Hello;

Good point about third world...

I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel 
and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones 
who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid 
programs or the well-to-do.

I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become 
commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that 
can improve the profitability of restaurants.

Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big 
business.  My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and 
be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less 
pleasant means).

Best Regards



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[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The Swiss have had direct democracy for over 100 years and only
>have about
> > 3 referenda per year though they can have as many as they want.
> > Responsible democratic citizens are not so stupid as to change the
>laws
> > every day.
> >
> > POC
> >
> They also have government provided Assault Rifles in every home.
>When you get our government to provide me with an Assault Rifle, I'll
>give your idea more consideration.
>
>Motie

Sorry, Motie, but trust an American to see the whole complicated 
Swiss set-up in terms of guns, first and foremost. The Swiss 
certainly don't see it that way. I believe most Swiss would see your 
comment on their democratic set-up as bizarre. I've spent time there 
and never heard anyone even mentioning guns. Same in Sweden, same in 
Holland, etc etc - they just don't talk about it, no big secret, of 
course defence is important but it's no big deal. The US gun issue 
doesn't exist there. But for you it's an issue. In fact the Swiss 
comparison is a most pertinent one in this discussion, if POC hadn't 
made that point I would have. I'll make another one - the Swiss have 
the oldest democracy in the world, and they modelled their modern 
constitution 150 years ago on that of the United States of America. 
So much of your guns debate has to do with the Constitution, doesn't 
it? Now, instead of looking at them through a US lens, try standing 
halfway between and making a less one-sided comparison.

PLEASE, this is NOT an invitation to dive head-first into a row, nor 
even a discussion, about guns and America! Guns are a distraction 
from this issue, not relevant, and, whatever Americans might feel 
about it, believe me, the rest of us do not want such a discussion 
here. Please mark my words, I'll kill any guns thread immediately, 
moderator's action.

Keith


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[biofuel] Re: Biodiesel from coconut oil (south pacific electricity generation)

2002-11-26 Thread creeble

Thanks to all for the input.  Lots to read up on.

BTW, one obstacle to overcome for this particular producer is 
insurance on the generating engines.  They tend to have strict 
clauses about fuel sources for their engines (whether or not the fuel 
actually meets any standards level).

All this is just education of course.

Thanks again, I'll be back...

Eric.



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RE: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread James Slayden

and there is this:

http://www.pumps-ez.com/pumps/0056064_0056064_1.html

the list seems extensive.

James Slayden

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Juan Boveda wrote:

> Hello John
> 
> I would suggest an used engine oil pump from a junk yard, some of them
> comes with a coarse filter, over it if you wish, you could add a metalic
> mesh in front of it and an electrical drill to drive the pump.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Juan
> 
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated
> WVO.
> My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions?
> 
> John Venema
> 
> 
> 
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> ADVERTISEMENT
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Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Alex Landels

Hello;

Good point about third world...

I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as
a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple
marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to
afford it will be the very poor through aid programs
or the well-to-do.

I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as
WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger
chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the
profitability of restaurants.

Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio
diesel will be big business.  My advise to the small
producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be
eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less
pleasant means).

Best Regards

Alex Landels
--- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Mark
> 
> Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-)
> 
> Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make.
> I'm grateful for 
> the useful distinction between homebrewers and small
> producers. We're 
> perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the
> same people, as 
> they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are.
> I've noticed some 
> of the differences you point to, not the way
> homebrewers generally 
> behave. I've also been rather startled at some of
> the ambitious plans 
> by people with no experience at all. Often they make
> the right sort 
> of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them:
> they'll be small 
> producers for exactly as long as it takes them to
> swell into big 
> producers. And don't get in the way. There have been
> signs of that 
> same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd
> too. I like Todd's 
> type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to
> become a 
> mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another
> local production 
> somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes
> the difference 
> is probably empowerment, as you say, and
> decentralized alternatives.
> 
> We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities,
> and indeed we no 
> longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in
> general, wherever, 
> however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come
> back to where we 
> started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World
> project, an 
> appropriate technology project. The technology
> development we've 
> talked of certainly benefits what you can do with
> biofuels in a 3rd 
> World rural community, as opposed to say three years
> ago, or in any 
> rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or
> back-yard - we don't 
> see appropriate technology as something for only the
> 3rd World. So 
> that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on
> community 
> self-reliance, and community and individual
> empowerment, whether in 
> 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same
> as with our other 
> projects.
> 
> That doesn't mean we're necessarily against
> corporations and the big, 
> centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to
> work with them - but 
> not FOR them, and where they work against community
> self-reliance and 
> empowerment, as they do, whether by design or
> neglect, we'll work to 
> counter that. Graham's very strange idea that
> biofuelers who don't 
> support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are
> "anti-biofuels" really 
> made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of
> sad really. I do 
> hope Graham is following all these discussions and
> taking it all 
> aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is,
> not a waste at 
> all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> 
> >Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be
> long.
> >
> >my comments interspersed between two different
> writers' posts:
> >
> >
> >
> >thor:
> > >  And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need
> > > >to organize to present a coherent voice.  Itís
> > > >unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with
> hundreds
> > > >of independent producers individually.
> >
> >Mark:
> >
> >One thing I've been learning lately is that the
> biodiesel movement is
> >diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself
> people to both teach about
> >homebrew, and do general education about emissions
> and benefits of
> >biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people
> doing this work of
> >publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I
> don't even bother to
> >talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do
> my classes for
> >homebrewers, unless I'm asked.
> >
> >Now, would someone please remind me why I
> should as a homebrewer have to
> >deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my
> life as a homebrewer, I
> >certainly don't need them. They certainly are
> trying to get our (and the
> >general public's) support, through their new
> registry of biodiesel
> >organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel
> Boosters registry. What's in it
> >for us, after I've been reading things about how
> bad homebrew is on their
> >website since 1998 or whenever it was?
> >
> >But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious
> to most people- since
> >when are small pr

Re: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Party of Citizens

There should be some test of minimal mental competence before people can
vote and those who do not know the difference between a mob and a society
of responsible citizens would fail the test.

POC

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, motie_d wrote:

> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >   I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
> >   Direct Democracy
> >
>
>  There is no way I will ever support Mob Rule, over Rule of Law.
> Short and Simple answer.
>
> Motie
>
>
>
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> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
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>
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>
>
>


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[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The Swiss have had direct democracy for over 100 years and only 
have about
> 3 referenda per year though they can have as many as they want.
> Responsible democratic citizens are not so stupid as to change the 
laws
> every day.
> 
> POC
> 
 They also have government provided Assault Rifles in every home. 
When you get our government to provide me with an Assault Rifle, I'll 
give your idea more consideration.

Motie


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[biofuels-biz] Re: A response to ... eh-hem.... Big Industry? was Re: BIG

2002-11-26 Thread Thor Skov

Keith,

Great post.  You have my brain working.

Thanks for reminding me about the NBB’s focus on
fleets.  I had forgotten that.  However, I don’t
necessarily agree that small-scale producers are going
to eschew fleets.  

But first, I think I may be tripping up on
definitions.  Where, really, does one draw the
distinction between a homebrewer, a small-scale
producer, and a large “corporate” producer?  It seems
to me that we might be trying to force various
attributes, scale of production, geographical reach,
business model, philosophy, community focus, into
single descriptors.  A homebrewer might be someone who
produces say, <100 gallons per week, on their
residential property.  A small-scale producer could be
a 2-5 person operation, using local feedstock, but as
a primary commercial enterprise.  Both of these
produce for local consumers.  But you could have a
large-scale local producer who also relies on local
feedstocks, especially in a large metropolitan area,
also for local consumption.  A business model such as
World Energy’s, on the other hand, is predicated on
quite different assumptions and operating procedures,
moving raw materials and finished products among
various markets; it’s much more akin to Enron than to
any localized business.

However, if we want to emphasize local energy
economies, then local producers, including small-scale
ones, should be thinking about fleets.  There’s no
reason why, for example, a Seattle-based producer
couldn’t supply the city school buses, or the
municipal transit.  I could still reasonably call them
small-scale at this level (granted I haven’t crunched
the numbers to see if the available WVO supply is
sufficient to meet the needs of these buyers).

You wrote that surveys show that Americans are willing
to pay extra for greener and more economical vehicles.
 Can you point me in the direction of some of these
surveys?  I would so like to believe this but I am
skeptical.  There is always a gulf between expressed
willingness to pay and actually paying.  And what I
see happening is precisely the opposite – most people
are more than willing to pay more for less green and
less economical vehicles.  Sure, there are a few who
buy high-efficiency diesels (yours truly) or hybrids,
but those are still a small market segment.

You may be correct that I am overestimating the
trepidation of the average consumer.  I acknowledge
that people I talk to about biodiesel (including those
who have never heard about it before) are generally
enthusiastic, but there’s a gulf between enthusiasm
and action.  You are undoubtedly correct that the
general public needs a different approach from fleet
managers, but remember that the general public
interacts with big business for most of its car needs
– purchase, fuel, parts.  Many people are uninformed
and busy.  So, to get mr and mrs suburbia to act (at
least in the short term) you need to reach these big
business interfaces.  If they can get a
diesel-electric hybrid at their dealer they are much
more likely to buy one than if they have to do a bunch
of research and go out of their way to find something.
 Similarly, if the local Texaco is selling BD, great. 
If they have to drive somewhere out of the way and set
up a special account with a small distributor, that’s
a barrier.

Keith, I am still digesting your paragraph about a
decentralized diffused network.  I agree that it works
best for information exchange and resource sharing,
but for the purposes of lobbying, or communicating
with an entity such as the NBB, it does not.   If, as
you say, homebrewers may not be able to organize
because of internal disagreements, how would it be
possible for the NBB (or anyone else) to deal
effectively with them, at least in terms of reaching a
consensus on issues?  Maybe they don't need to as Mark
suggests.

I realize that you and others on this list have a much
greater familiarity with and feel for the composition
of the independent biodiesel community than do I.  I
also may be too conventional in my thinking, and I
will ponder your post further.  On the other hand,
perhaps we’re not disagreeing at all.  You support an
association of small-scale coops and other producers,
and that (I think) is really what I was talking about.
 Someone brewing 50 or 100 gallons a week in their
garage is not necessarily whom I would target.  Yet,
that person may be equally affected (in relative
terms), by changes in state and national laws or
agency regulations.

In other words, I don’t think that a movement to
localize economic activity, including energy
production, can often afford to ignore the wider
world.  National and state policies can have dramatic
impacts locally; consider just fuel taxes, licensing,
and testing requirements.  

You wrote that the hundreds of biodieselers are
accessible through existing networks.  True, but I’m
not talking about a reaching in, rather a reaching
out.  I agree that small biodieselers should not try
to organize themselves into the s

Re: [biofuel] When you're a Geek and know what a computer can do .... You vote "no" Was: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread James Slayden

ah, unless it's an embedded system .  ;)

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, csakima wrote:

> The problem with that system would be ... who would be the "system
> administrator" of such a system???
> 
> The Admin would have almost Godlike powers  since, being in charge of
> how votes are processes, would be able to make anyone he chooses ...
> "win"
> the elections.  And then later, through the media  ahem "explain"
> why the dude won.  I don't think I like the idea of having one single
> person
> (or two or three guys) control "what the will of the people is".  You
> think
> power is concentrated NOW ... you try wait until system administrator's
> got
> the power to elect or not elect at the "click of a mouse".
> 
> Nope, not me,
> 
> Curtis
> Computer Geek
> 
> Get your free newsletter at
> http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
>   I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
>   Direct Democracy
> 
>Teledemocracy   -   E-Democracy
> 
> 
> .The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform
> government to include the   voices of citizens in the
> policy making process.
> 
> 
> -
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[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There should be some test of minimal mental competence before 
people can
> vote and those who do not know the difference between a mob and a 
society
> of responsible citizens would fail the test.
> 
> POC
> 

 Perhaps you can clarify the distinctions for us? In my opinion, a 
society of responsible citizens should be able to have some agreed-on 
rules to live by, instead of arbitrary decisions with no continuity. 
We'd have to live our lives conducting Polls to figure out what is 
acceptable today.

 I prefer to have the rules known in advance, and expect people to 
stay within them. These rules are called laws.


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[biofuel] Re: Back Online

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, what I meant was the old fashioned, small operation that 
used 
> horse or mule power to move 1 tree at a  time, so no big trucks 
need 
> anywhere near the cottage.  Compost toilets are code.  There are 
now 
> office buildings in big cities that use them, so no septic system 
> needed.  In most areas, using a cistern and collecting the roof 
water 
> would work, no well needed. Straw bale, cob and papercrete are all 
> becoming or are code, so no big dollars needed.  The whole idea is 
to 
> get healthy, reasonable, lifestyles for those who just don't fit, 
not 
> one size fits all - which doesn't actually fit anyone.
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 

 Kim,
 Thanks for your reply. You may have a workable solution. I can't 
make it a high priority, but I will further investigate the 
possibilties.
 My Mother has spent the last couple of summers with me, and felt she 
was imposing on us, and wanted to park a small trailer house at my 
place for her summer use. The County won't allow me to connect 
electric or water to it, unless I subdivide my land into parcels. The 
trailer house has to have it's own plot at least 2 1/2 acres in size, 
and it's own separate Septic sewer system to be Permitted as a 
Residence. The current Permit lists it as a Storage Shed! We joke 
that the County has made my aged Mother homeless and forced her to 
sleep in a storage shed in my back yard.
Motie



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[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Thor Skov

Mark,

Well, my post certain punched a lot of your buttons. 
I appreciate your taking the time to reply so
passionately.

As should be obvious by now, I am not familiar with
the homebrewing community beyond the few individuals I
know regionally who make BD and my own as yet
unrealized pretensions towards making my own fuel for
a while now.  

I agree with you that homebrewers, small producers,
and large producers have different agendas and
(possibly) overlapping interests.  I am sure you read
my posts carefully Mark, so you know that I never
suggested homebrewers “give anything up to a
representative, or a representative organization.”  In
fact, I said specifically that most homebrewers would
probably not be interested in belonging to a
“biodiesel association,” and that no such association
could ever replace local ties.  I also NEVER said
anything about, as you put it, “unagreed-to
representatives, etc!), so please, no matter how
agitated you feel, try to refrain from setting up
straw men.

My focus is really more on independent producers who
are making a (small) business of biodiesel.  But, my
point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are
affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that
giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard
by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good
idea.   You don’t have to sell me on the merits of
decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects,
and empowered community members.  I work with those
every day.  But you may need to sell some individuals
in power on those concepts if you are worried about
them messing things up.  Since you express great
concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and
rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know
that you want to be left the f*#k alone?  I would
suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are
not going to do it.

Mark, you wrote, “and I know for a fact that many of
the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in
common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying
organizations or whatnot.”  I certainly can’t gainsay
that.  But I wonder if you have enough in common as
homebrewers to see to your collective interest as
homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing
uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations.  The
possible organization and regulation you are agonizing
about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people
who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in
the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the
original organic farmers.  Adoption of technology goes
through phases, and if something becomes more
lucrative as a business, more people will enter and
want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards,
etc.  Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers
go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes. 
Sadly, I doubt that is likely.  The anecdotes you have
related bolster that view.

WRT certification, although I didn’t say so
specifically, I was actually thinking about
third-party, private-sector (nonprofit) certification,
not a government program.  When I mentioned organic
certification I was thinking of Oregon Tilth, CCOF,
etc., not USDA organic standards.  What happened to
organics was lamentable, but I think it had less to do
with poor government than it did with the fact that
the proposed regs were developed at a time when
agribusiness (General Mills, ADM, Birdseye) was
realizing the huge growth potential in organic foods
and was jumping into the market with both feet.  The
standards proposed in ’98 reflected their interests
(and those of corporate farms), more than it did the
pioneers of organics.

What is interesting was the reaction.  USDA received
more public comments (over a half a million IIRC), way
more than any federal agency had ever received on any
proposed standards.  How did this happen?  It happened
because these voices of the public were focused
through the efforts of, yup, organizations—food
cooperatives, environmental organizations, local farm
and agriculture organizations.  They got the word out
and got it out well.  Now, in part, this reflected the
effectiveness of diffused networks of activists and
interested consumers.  But it also reflected a LOT of
hard work by formal organizations.

Back to certification.  I come from a background
studying certification and labeling, mostly of forest
products and food.  I don’t know if certification and
labeling would work for biodiesel, whether or not it
would be a good idea, what the effect on consumer
behavior would be.  I threw it out as a possibility. 
The thing is, I don’t think anyone else knows either,
including you and Keith.  No one has done (to my
knowledge, and I’d love to be wrong on this ‘cause I
like hard data) market research on how consumers make
choices on alternative fuels for their automobiles,
what influencing their decision-making, how
risk-averse they are, and so on.  I originally stated
that I thought they are risk-averse and Keith asserted
the opposite.  I hope he’s ri

Re: Forests - was [biofuel] Re: Back Online

2002-11-26 Thread James Slayden

Hey wait, this is starting to remind men of the BD BIG/small producers



;-)

BTW, sustainable small logging operations are awesome!  I applaude them.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, motie_d wrote:

> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I see your point Motie, but I do think you're being a bit one-
> sided.
> 
> I must admit to that possability. I've been sampling a bit of 'Lawn
> mower fuel' that came out particularly well.
> 
> > I think you can assign blame in three directions, probably with not
> > much to choose between them: wrong-headed environmentalists,
> > large-scale commercial logging concerns, and bureaucrats.
> 
> May I distribute the blame among these 3 as I see it from my local
> perspective? 90% air-headed 'Environmentalists, 8% high-level
> Bureaucrats, 2% Big Loggers who have failed to refute mis-information
> about themselves, despite their best efforts. Small Independant
> Loggers don't even get an honorable mention, and are in fact a major
> key to any solution.
> 
> > None is
> > blame-free, and on the other hand, all have their points
> 
> Many of them under their Hats
> 
> - none is
> > entirely evil or foolish either.
> 
> I'll concur that none are deliberately evil. 'Foolish' is highly
> debatable.
> 
> > Somehow they've managed to get
> > themselves into the worst possible relationship with each other,
> with
> > the forests and the public being the victims.
> 
> Professional Loggers, both Big and Small, have had a good working
> relationship with Professional Forestry Agents to the benefit of the
> public and the Forests for many years. 'Environmentalists' with
> little knowledge and much dis/mis-information have exerted political
> pressure to high-level Bureaucrats and politicians to the detriment
> of all.
> 
> > Not unusual.
> 
> Unfortunately, I agreee.
> 
> > Similarly,
> > you won't find solutions by excluding any of the three, and I
> > perceive that you'd like to exclude the environmentalists, and
> > perhaps less so the bureaucrats.
> 
> None of the 3 can be excluded, and I think the Small Independant
> Logger also needs to be included, as they are the real key to a
> workable solution.
> In my opinion, their needs to be a distinction between high-level
> Bureaucrats and the local Foresters. I see the problem as being
> between 'Environmentalists' and the well-being of our Forests. The
> Loggers and the Bureaucrats are caught in the middle. None of the
> concerned parties wants to deliberately destroy the Forests. Loggers
> and professional Foresters KNOW what they are doing.
> The 'Environmentalists' may have the best of intentions, but are near-
> totally ignorant about the issues involved. High-level Bureaucrats
> are next in line in factual knowledge, and therefore are more easily
> susceptible to mis-information spread by activists. They are also
> more concerned with their careers than the health of the Forests, and
> are willing to do anything to appease those who may put a black mark
> in their record.
> 
> > Much experience elsewhere has shown
> > that if you do that, the bureaucrats and commercial concerns will
> > between them make the situation far worse than it is now.
> 
> The Environmentalists have too much political clout to be forcefully
> excluded.(And honestly legitimate concerns) They need to be educated
> as to the harm they are doing in their ignorance. The high-level
> Bureaucrats will go along with whichever direction seems to be in the
> best interests of their career.
> 
> > Taking all
> > the rules away and letting in the loggers is not the solution, and
> > there's a rather huge amount of unfortunate evidence to hand to
> > attest to that.
> 
> I've never proposed taking all the rules away. I just think that the
> rules should be based on factual needs of the forest, by professional
> Foresters, not by a bunch of activists without a clue.
> >
> > Forests need management. What you describe is mismanagement or no
> > management. No excuse for that, plenty of experience available on
> > good forest management.
> 
> That is exactly my point. The current situation is run on rules made
> to appease a bunch of activists with NO background in forest
> management. Despite the common perception, Loggers, many into the 3rd
> generation, have no intention to 'destroy' the forests they make
> their living from, and are highly annoyed when 'Environmentalists
> with no knowledge of proper management practices are making all the
> rules to the severe detriment to the forests.
> 
> > One thing that's emerged most clearly from
> > forest work in 3rd World countries is that successful projects very
> > much include the involvement at all levels of the local
> communities.
> 
> Local communities who rely on the forests for a living, have little
> input into National Forest Policies. The policy decisions are made by
> high-level Bureaucrats who are attempting to appease activists. Most
> of these Bureaucrats have little or no 

RE: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread Juan Boveda

Hello John

I would suggest an used engine oil pump from a junk yard, some of them 
comes with a coarse filter, over it if you wish, you could add a metalic 
mesh in front of it and an electrical drill to drive the pump.

Regards

Juan


You wrote:

I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO.
My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions?

John Venema



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[biofuel] When you're a Geek and know what a computer can do .... You vote "no" Was: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread csakima

The problem with that system would be ... who would be the "system
administrator" of such a system???

The Admin would have almost Godlike powers  since, being in charge of
how votes are processes, would be able to make anyone he chooses ... "win"
the elections.  And then later, through the media  ahem "explain"
why the dude won.  I don't think I like the idea of having one single person
(or two or three guys) control "what the will of the people is".  You think
power is concentrated NOW ... you try wait until system administrator's got
the power to elect or not elect at the "click of a mouse".

Nope, not me,

Curtis
Computer Geek

Get your free newsletter at
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- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
  Direct Democracy

   Teledemocracy   -   E-Democracy


.The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform
government to include the   voices of citizens in the
policy making process.


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Re: [biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread studio53

I see a lot of those things on ebay. Are you talking about 12V or 120V?
---
Jesse Parris  |  studio53  |  53 maitland rd  |  stamford, ct  06906
203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/
- Original Message -
From: "John Venema" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: [biofuel] electrical pump


> I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO.
> My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions?
>
> John Venema


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[biofuel] electrical pump

2002-11-26 Thread John Venema

I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO.
My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions?

John Venema


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Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread milliontc


I agree with your analysis. It's unlikely to ...
Phew! That's a relief. (seriously)
J




 

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Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread milliontc

 

  ..the interests that make the big 
campaign donations.   Any signs of these 
two campaigns combining their efforts? Teledemocracy and 
campaign 
finance reform? Perthaps they should.

 cfr would be a good platform. We'd need someone to to prepare a 
blueprint for the operation. Not me. Out of my league sorry to say. 
What about you?
J


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Re: [biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] BD Business and Ability to be Profitable--

2002-11-26 Thread Kim & Garth Travis

I am beginning to think that the reason Americans accept rape and 
pillage of other countries, is that so many of them work for large 
corporations where the CEOs and other swinging dicks rape and pillage 
the companies and the working man gets squat.  I guess if you live with 
it, on a daily basis, and have never known anything else, then you 
wonder what the big deal is.

Perhaps if we could figure out some sort of program, to show them there 
actually is an alternative  Something like what Canada did years ago 
- Grade 6 students from the most violent parts of Ireland were brought 
to Canada to spend the entire summer, to live in peace.  I believe they 
continued this practice for at least 10 years.  I would like to believe 
that this has something to do with the improvement of conditions in 
Ireland.

How to apply this to the workforce of America is a mind boggling task, 
but I don't believe that Americans are actually evil, they are lied to 
on a daily basis.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

Keith Addison wrote:

> On the basis of this reasoning, it would then be best to eradicate
> small farms and small farmers, for instance, and have it all replaced
> by "more efficient" industrialized farming. Only it hasn't quite
> worked out that way. What you tend to get instead is less efficiency,
> or no efficiency, with large-scale externalizations, a poor product,
> and unhappy (or dead) consumers.
> 
> Exaggeration?
> 
>  >From the 1930's to the 1960's the free-range system was the popular
>  >way to raise poultry in the United states. It produced meaty, tender
>  >birds at a reasonable cost, using a reasonable amount of labor and
>  >providing valuable fertility to the land. Many farmers raised
>  >10,000-20,000 birds per year on short-grass pasture ("range"), both
>  >chickens and turkeys. With the rise of industrial agriculture and
>  >the development of the confinement broiler barn, this sustainable
>  >and profitable system was discontinued by means of withdrawing
>  >growers contracts. Left with no market or processing facilities the
>  >practice was abandoned within two or three years.
> 
> But the way it's been presented to the world is that the old ways
> were less efficient. Actually they were more efficient, in more ways
> than one, lacking, for instance, this current feature of the
> "efficient" industrialized poultry production systems:
> 
>  > >We don't need terrorists, we have industrial food suppliers.  Or is it
>  > >possible that turkeys have become the weapon of choice for terrorists?
>  > >How can we call a food system sustainable that sickens an estimated 1.3
>  > >million Americans, hospitalizes 15,000, and kills 500 just from
>  >Salmonella every year?
>  > >Maybe it would be a good time to switch to something besides a 
> commercial
>  > >turkey for Thanksgiving dinner.  
> http://www.cspinet.org/new/200211211.html
> 
> Let alone the manure lakes, groundwater pollution, etc etc etc. In
> France, for instance, in 2000, over 20% of all poultry (90 million
> birds) was profitably, cleanly and safely raised using the old
> free-range system.
> 
> Small-scale capitalism used to be the backbone of America. There's no
> evidence that its replacement by large-scale, centralized
> corporatization has brought any improvements, rather the contrary.
> Big ain't beautiful.
> 
> If you're looking for particular examples of small being both
> beautiful and profitable in the biodiesel field, you'd perhaps be
> finding rather more of them had not small producers been threatened
> with $25,000-per-day fines and told they had to pay $1 million-plus
> testing costs or else. Now quite a number of people are planning
> small-scale start-ups, seem to be happy with their business plans,
> and should soon be testing the waters at the EPA since they changed
> their tune.
> 
> It seems large producers, on the other hand, can't compete without
> continued soy subsidies, at the taxpayer's expense, and the
> continuance of a hopelessly uneconomic and unsustainable commodities
> overproduction "system". The pricing structure of one such producer
> (?), examined here recently, would not seem to leave any
> justification for their support.
> 
> Of course public policy folks will not be rushing to support the
> decentralization of energy supply that is the only path to a
> sustainable energy future, regardless of the feedstock. That doesn't
> mean *only* small and local and *no* big and central, but it does
> mean an end to *only* big and central. There's room for both, and if
> there isn't then room will have to be made.
> 
> Best
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
>  >Hello again.  One charge that I have heard public policy folks levy at 
> small
>  >producers is along the following lines:  "Small producers can't make their
>  >production business really profitable, so they're not going to be able to
>  >contribute significantly to mass-market conversion from fossil fuels to
>  >biofuels... Therefore, since our policy goal is to  maximi

Re: [biofuel] Re: Back Online

2002-11-26 Thread Kim & Garth Travis

Actually, what I meant was the old fashioned, small operation that used 
horse or mule power to move 1 tree at a  time, so no big trucks need 
anywhere near the cottage.  Compost toilets are code.  There are now 
office buildings in big cities that use them, so no septic system 
needed.  In most areas, using a cistern and collecting the roof water 
would work, no well needed. Straw bale, cob and papercrete are all 
becoming or are code, so no big dollars needed.  The whole idea is to 
get healthy, reasonable, lifestyles for those who just don't fit, not 
one size fits all - which doesn't actually fit anyone.
Bright Blessings,
Kim

motie_d wrote:

> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kim & Garth Travis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > Not only is Mother Nature in deep s___t, but we as a society are. 
> I
>  > often wish we could put back the old wood cutters cottages, in the
>  > National forests, for the people that just don't fit our modern
> society.
>  >   They could be very useful to the rest of us and be much happier,
>  > themselves.
>  > Bright Blessings,
>  > Kim
>  >
> 
> 
> Kim,
> I don't think that was a serious proposal, but I'll comment anyway.
> In order to comply with all the environmental regulations concerning
> our National Forests, we would need to spend many thousands of
> dollars on Environmental Impact Studies, being sure to include the
> needed access road for the heavy trucks to get in to do soil-boring
> samples before allowing a Septic system or Well to be drilled.
> Outhouses and hand-dug Wells are not acceptable anymore. Then to
> build a 'cottage' to current building standards.
> Top of the head estimate...10 years time and $200,000 for a 10X12
> foot shack. LOL
> 
> Motie
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> 
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RE: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Frank

Their concern is a bit amusing, considering all the dead animals 
dumped in landfills, burnt in incinerators and so on. Nonetheless, 
they're right to be concerned.

This study was done to address the problem of tallow disposal from 
BSE animals - it's about biodiesel rather than WVO, but could be 
useful to you all the same:

http://www.teagasc.ie/research/reports/crops/4321/eopr-4321.htm
Cost Reduction in Bio-Diesel Production
"As part of a programme to assess bio-diesel production from low-cost 
materials, the availability of waste oils and fats in Ireland and the 
EU was assessed, and the behaviour of their esters in vehicles was 
measured. The utilisation of beef tallow from BSE risk organisms was 
given special attention."

These might also be useful:

Comparison of the Engine Performance and Emissions Characteristics of 
Vegetable Oil-Based and Animal Fat-Based Biodiesel
Abstract: Comparison of the Engine Performance and Emissions 
Characteristics of Vegetable Oil-Based and Animal Fat-Based Biodiesel 
Jon Van Gerpen Iowa State University August 8, 1996 Introduction 
Biodiesel fuels produced from animal fats and vegetable oils have 
similar composition. The primary difference is t
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/gen-218.pdf

Bio-diesel Production based on Waste Cooking Oil:
Abstract: Bio-diesel Production based on Waste Cooking Oil: Promotion 
of the Establishment of an Industry in Ireland ALTENER CONTRACT No. 
XVII/4.1030/AL/77/95/IRL Final Report, Sept 1997 W. Korbitz, Austrian 
Biofuels Institute, Vienna, Austria. B. Rice, A. Frohlich, R. 
Leonard, Teagasc, Oak Park Research Centre, Carlow, Ireland.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/gen-190.pdf

Prowl around a bit at the NBB database, see what you can find.
http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/
NBB Report Search

There isn't a lot of information on SVO emissions, not nearly as much 
as on biodiesel, but I think you can use the biodiesel studies, or at 
least some of them. The ACREVO study might give you useful 
information on how they differ. That's here, along with other SVO 
studies:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#refs

HTH

Best wishes

Keith


>Todd,
>
>Thanks for the link Todd. I'll write them an e-mail. prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
>
>The main reason to ask for the emission testing results are a 
>worried government. WVO from restaurants always contains some animal 
>fat. Some restaurants fry meat or meat products in the oil. A minor 
>group of restaurants use animal fat as a frying oil. This worries 
>the government when it comes to waste disposal. There are 2 EU 
>regulations on air pollution from combustion. One for burning pure 
>plant derived biomass and clean waste (2001/80/EC) and one for not 
>clean waste including animal derived products (2000/76/EC). Since 
>there have been some animal born diseases in Europe lately the 
>government is very sensitive about waste disposal containing animal 
>derived products. Even though the used frying oil comes from 
>products fit for human consumption, this doesn't give enough 
>guarantee for the government. For burning used frying oil one needs 
>a permit from the local government. And one by one they ask the same 
>questions. Up till now this mainly resulted in refusals to give a 
>permit. I try to gather all necessary information in order to help 
>the companies who collect frying oil from restaurants and sell it as 
>a bio fuel to answer these questions. So if you or anyone also knows 
>an organisation which has already done some combustion tests on used 
>frying oil from restaurants I would be glad to know.
>
>Frank
>
>-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
>Van: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Verzonden: maandag 25 november 2002 20:30
>Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
>Onderwerp: Re: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils
>
>
>Frank,
>
>Take a look at www.cleanburn.com
>
>They're just a few hours from here in Pennsylvania. We ran
>samples of Ohio crude straight out of the ground, straight
>vegetable oil and biodiesel in one of their units (one of their
>distributor's units in Ohio actually), all with fine results
>relative to the functional ability of the fuels in comparison to
>the waste motor oils they are designed to use.
>
>Granted, that's not the same as emissions results. However, these
>units are approved by the US EPA, which means that they have to
>have conducted some emissions testing using waste motor oil.
>
>Certainly WVO would be less toxic out of the chute than motor
>oil, or at least one would tend to believe so.
>
>Take a look. Perhaps e-mail them. If you need someone to make a
>call, it could be done from our end relatively easily.
>
>Todd Swearingen
>Appal Energy
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Frank Bergmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:47 AM
>Subject: [biofuels-biz] informat

[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>   I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
>   Direct Democracy
> 

 There is no way I will ever support Mob Rule, over Rule of Law. 
Short and Simple answer.

Motie


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[biofuel] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Hi Mark

Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-)

Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for 
the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're 
perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as 
they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some 
of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally 
behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans 
by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort 
of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small 
producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big 
producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that 
same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's 
type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a 
mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production 
somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference 
is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives.

We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no 
longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, 
however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we 
started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an 
appropriate technology project. The technology development we've 
talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd 
World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any 
rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't 
see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So 
that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community 
self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 
3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other 
projects.

That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, 
centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but 
not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and 
empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to 
counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't 
support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are "anti-biofuels" really 
made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do 
hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all 
aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at 
all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO.

Regards

Keith



>Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long.
>
>my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts:
>
>
>
>thor:
> >  And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need
> > >to organize to present a coherent voice.  It’s
> > >unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds
> > >of independent producers individually.
>
>Mark:
>
>One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is
>diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about
>homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of
>biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of
>publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to
>talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for
>homebrewers, unless I'm asked.
>
>Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to
>deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I
>certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the
>general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel
>organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it
>for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their
>website since 1998 or whenever it was?
>
>But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since
>when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team?
>People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks
>are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having
>made a liter of homebrew first.  It's important to realize that we are not
>the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers
>thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap.
>
>case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of
>government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing
>big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively
>speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low
>investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the
>would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major
>distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my
>mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the
>homebrewers, who a

[biofuel] Fwd: Ethanol From Roots

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Interesting.

>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:07:16 +
>From: Bill Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Homestead mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Ethanol From Roots
>
>Lately I've been growing kefir culture on inulin-containing roots like
>yacon, with the goal of producing distilled ethanol.
>
>Kefir could be called "sourdough of milk" since it's the same sort of
>thing, a mixture of yeast and bacteria.  Kefir yeast don't especially
>like starch, like Saccharomyces, but instead specialize in lactose.  It
>turns out they're also great at digesting at inulin, the starch-like
>polymer of fructose that occurs in the roots of virtually all the
>members of the sunflower family: chicory, jerusalem artichoke, salsify,
>dandelion, elecampane, yacon, etc.
>
>The main challenge in producing ethanol is not to use more energy in
>processing than can be obtained from the resulting fuel.  Using kefir
>yeast allows you to omit the long baking step that's required to make,
>say, tequila from the agave, another inulin producer.  It may be no good
>for flavor, but fine for distillation into fuel.
>
>The next main problem is how to pay for all those little packets of
>yeast.  And where the heck do I buy "Kluyvermyces marxianus"?  Just
>recently I adapted the hop yeast technique for purifying kefir yeast.
>It all works exactly the same way.  I made a batch of hop yacon kefir a
>few weeks ago, but I was too busy to do much experimenting.  That was
>before I harvested yacon, so it was canned, hydrolyzed yacon (which even
>wine yeast take to).  Last night I recreated the kefir culture just as I
>did for the sourdough, buy mixing some old hop yacon kefir and and sour
>yacon kefir into a new batch of pureed yacon.  As of this morning, the
>new yacon kefir smells perfectly normal, as does the sourdough.
>
>The only remaining question is whether certain organic compounds in
>plants like elecampane will inhibit yeast growth.
>
>The last step that used to stand in the way to the ethanol revolution
>was the repeated distillation.  Once again, the challenge is not to use
>too much energy.  Solar distillation is quite easy, but it's difficult
>to control the amount of water that also distills out.  Enter the
>zeolite filter.  Zeolite filters can easily separate water and ethanol,
>producing a 199 proof product on the first run.


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Re: [biofuel] wvo

2002-11-26 Thread Steve Spence

we skim the top layer off, siphon down to about 3 or 4 inches from the
bottom of the barrel. really depends on the source and how long ago they
completely emptied the barrel. we use an electric pump with a filter on the
siphon end, that prevents us from picking up "gunk".


Steve Spence
Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter
& Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology:
http://www.green-trust.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: "Robby Davenport" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 10:56 PM
Subject: [biofuel] wvo


I have not yet started with making or using wvo as fuel . one of the
things I would like to know is in my situation I will have to take all
of the waste that is in the waste oil container . What is " typical "; I
have read most of you pull off the top . Apparently to avoid the solids
on the bottom and that really interesting layer that is really funky on
the bottom. any suggestions or ideas? thanks Robert





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[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Hi Mark

Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-)

Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for 
the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're 
perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as 
they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some 
of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally 
behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans 
by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort 
of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small 
producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big 
producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that 
same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's 
type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a 
mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production 
somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference 
is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives.

We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no 
longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, 
however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we 
started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an 
appropriate technology project. The technology development we've 
talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd 
World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any 
rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't 
see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So 
that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community 
self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 
3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other 
projects.

That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, 
centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but 
not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and 
empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to 
counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't 
support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are "anti-biofuels" really 
made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do 
hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all 
aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at 
all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO.

Regards

Keith



>Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long.
>
>my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts:
>
>
>
>thor:
> >  And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need
> > >to organize to present a coherent voice.  It’s
> > >unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds
> > >of independent producers individually.
>
>Mark:
>
>One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is
>diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about
>homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of
>biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of
>publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to
>talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for
>homebrewers, unless I'm asked.
>
>Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to
>deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I
>certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the
>general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel
>organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it
>for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their
>website since 1998 or whenever it was?
>
>But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since
>when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team?
>People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks
>are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having
>made a liter of homebrew first.  It's important to realize that we are not
>the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers
>thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap.
>
>case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of
>government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing
>big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively
>speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low
>investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the
>would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major
>distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my
>mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the
>homebrewers, who a

RE: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils

2002-11-26 Thread Frank Bergmans

Todd,
 
Thanks for the link Todd. I'll write them an e-mail.  

The main reason to ask for the emission testing results are a worried 
government. WVO from restaurants always contains some animal fat. Some 
restaurants fry meat or meat products in the oil. A minor group of restaurants 
use animal fat as a frying oil. This worries the government when it comes to 
waste disposal. There are 2 EU regulations on air pollution from combustion. 
One for burning pure plant derived biomass and clean waste (2001/80/EC) and one 
for not clean waste including animal derived products (2000/76/EC). Since there 
have been some animal born diseases in Europe lately the government is very 
sensitive about waste disposal containing animal derived products. Even though 
the used frying oil comes from products fit for human consumption, this doesn't 
give enough guarantee for the government. For burning used frying oil one needs 
a permit from the local government. And one by one they ask the same questions. 
Up till now this mainly resulted in refusals to give a permit. I try to gather 
all necessary information in order to help the companies who collect frying oil 
from restaurants and sell it as a bio fuel to answer these questions. So if you 
or anyone also knows an organisation which has already done some combustion 
tests on used frying oil from restaurants I would be glad to know.

Frank

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Verzonden: maandag 25 november 2002 20:30
Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils


Frank,

Take a look at www.cleanburn.com

They're just a few hours from here in Pennsylvania. We ran
samples of Ohio crude straight out of the ground, straight
vegetable oil and biodiesel in one of their units (one of their
distributor's units in Ohio actually), all with fine results
relative to the functional ability of the fuels in comparison to
the waste motor oils they are designed to use.

Granted, that's not the same as emissions results. However, these
units are approved by the US EPA, which means that they have to
have conducted some emissions testing using waste motor oil.

Certainly WVO would be less toxic out of the chute than motor
oil, or at least one would tend to believe so.

Take a look. Perhaps e-mail them. If you need someone to make a
call, it could be done from our end relatively easily.

Todd Swearingen
Appal Energy

- Original Message -
From: Frank Bergmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:47 AM
Subject: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying
oils


> Hi everyone,
>
> At this moment I am writing a fact sheet about the use of used
Waste Vegetable Oil from restaurants. Since the ban on animal
feed WVO needs an alternative outlet. Because the Dutch
government is against tax redemption on bio diesel the most
relevant outlet at this moment is heating fuel in boilers to heat
for example glass houses. The product board helps the Dutch
collectors of WVO to maintain their quite successful collecting
system. Goal is to prevent WVO to disappear into a general waste
stream.
>
> Before issuing a permit, the government wants to know more
about the possible emissions to the air. Problem is that I don't
have this information. I have been searching the internet for
reports on experimental data on combustion of WVO in boilers. But
unfortunately I didn't find anything useful. Can anyone help me?
>
> Frank Bergmans
>
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups
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>
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>
>
>


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 . 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Yo

Forests - was [biofuel] Re: Back Online

2002-11-26 Thread motie_d

--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I see your point Motie, but I do think you're being a bit one-
sided. 

I must admit to that possability. I've been sampling a bit of 'Lawn 
mower fuel' that came out particularly well.

> I think you can assign blame in three directions, probably with not 
> much to choose between them: wrong-headed environmentalists, 
> large-scale commercial logging concerns, and bureaucrats.

May I distribute the blame among these 3 as I see it from my local 
perspective? 90% air-headed 'Environmentalists, 8% high-level 
Bureaucrats, 2% Big Loggers who have failed to refute mis-information 
about themselves, despite their best efforts. Small Independant 
Loggers don't even get an honorable mention, and are in fact a major 
key to any solution.

> None is 
> blame-free, and on the other hand, all have their points 

Many of them under their Hats

- none is 
> entirely evil or foolish either.

I'll concur that none are deliberately evil. 'Foolish' is highly 
debatable.

> Somehow they've managed to get 
> themselves into the worst possible relationship with each other, 
with 
> the forests and the public being the victims.

Professional Loggers, both Big and Small, have had a good working 
relationship with Professional Forestry Agents to the benefit of the 
public and the Forests for many years. 'Environmentalists' with 
little knowledge and much dis/mis-information have exerted political 
pressure to high-level Bureaucrats and politicians to the detriment 
of all.

> Not unusual.

Unfortunately, I agreee.

> Similarly, 
> you won't find solutions by excluding any of the three, and I 
> perceive that you'd like to exclude the environmentalists, and 
> perhaps less so the bureaucrats.

None of the 3 can be excluded, and I think the Small Independant 
Logger also needs to be included, as they are the real key to a 
workable solution.
In my opinion, their needs to be a distinction between high-level 
Bureaucrats and the local Foresters. I see the problem as being 
between 'Environmentalists' and the well-being of our Forests. The 
Loggers and the Bureaucrats are caught in the middle. None of the 
concerned parties wants to deliberately destroy the Forests. Loggers 
and professional Foresters KNOW what they are doing. 
The 'Environmentalists' may have the best of intentions, but are near-
totally ignorant about the issues involved. High-level Bureaucrats 
are next in line in factual knowledge, and therefore are more easily 
susceptible to mis-information spread by activists. They are also 
more concerned with their careers than the health of the Forests, and 
are willing to do anything to appease those who may put a black mark 
in their record.

> Much experience elsewhere has shown 
> that if you do that, the bureaucrats and commercial concerns will 
> between them make the situation far worse than it is now.

The Environmentalists have too much political clout to be forcefully 
excluded.(And honestly legitimate concerns) They need to be educated 
as to the harm they are doing in their ignorance. The high-level 
Bureaucrats will go along with whichever direction seems to be in the 
best interests of their career.

> Taking all 
> the rules away and letting in the loggers is not the solution, and 
> there's a rather huge amount of unfortunate evidence to hand to 
> attest to that.

I've never proposed taking all the rules away. I just think that the 
rules should be based on factual needs of the forest, by professional 
Foresters, not by a bunch of activists without a clue.
> 
> Forests need management. What you describe is mismanagement or no 
> management. No excuse for that, plenty of experience available on 
> good forest management.

That is exactly my point. The current situation is run on rules made 
to appease a bunch of activists with NO background in forest 
management. Despite the common perception, Loggers, many into the 3rd 
generation, have no intention to 'destroy' the forests they make 
their living from, and are highly annoyed when 'Environmentalists 
with no knowledge of proper management practices are making all the 
rules to the severe detriment to the forests.

> One thing that's emerged most clearly from 
> forest work in 3rd World countries is that successful projects very 
> much include the involvement at all levels of the local 
communities. 

Local communities who rely on the forests for a living, have little 
input into National Forest Policies. The policy decisions are made by 
high-level Bureaucrats who are attempting to appease activists. Most 
of these Bureaucrats have little or no background in Forestry, and 
are therefore easily misled by popular misperceptions. They are 
administrators and political appointees, NOT Forestry Experts.

> Otherwise it doesn't work, simple as that. How to go about this is 
no 
> secret, plenty of good info and good people available, who've 
learnt 
> the hard way.

We are up against the 

Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread Keith Addison

Hello James

>We're the first generation with the means to become the imperative voice
>of reason.

I dunno, the community-at-large could always mosey on down to parly 
or congress or whatever and reason with the buggers with a club, LOL! 
And then take over and do just the same, or worse. :-(

I remember a long conversation, or actually an increasingly heated 
argument, one evening in London about teledemocracy, or electronic 
democracy, and how it could be real democracy for the first time. 
Mixed crowd of people from various countries, about half of them 
English. I think I may have started it by saying the average worker 
on a Chinese commune had more say over what affected him in his daily 
life than the average Englishman did with his one vote every four 
years. This didn't go down very well with some of the English 
especially, somehow, and then the idea of teledemocracy came up. Some 
of us saw it as the first real answer, others as the end of all 
things democratic. That was in 1979. Makes you think. I still think 
it's the answer, or it could be. It requires careful implementation 
and careful maintenance. Perhaps that too is best developed via 
teledemocracy.

I agree with your analysis. It's unlikely to be embraced with joyous 
welcome by the incumbents, nor by the interests that make the big 
campaign donations. That really is the issue, eh? Long live Granny D 
(though she has already), and strength to her arm. Any signs of these 
two campaigns combining their efforts? Teledemocracy and campaign 
finance reform? Perthaps they should.

I also agreed with your comment on the statement by FoE's Tony 
Juniper. They should get into this.

Regards

Keith



>  I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
>  Direct Democracy
>
>   Teledemocracy   ö   E-Democracy
>
>
>  Our present brand of ÎRepresentativeâ democracy
>has failed the environment and will continue to fail it if the
>system is not changed. Representative government puts
>almost complete power into the hands small elite groups
>- the politicians.  During the period of office this group is
>in effect a dictatorship, with no citizen involvement in
>policy making decisions. But policy is effected by that
>other elite group, the vested interests, who invariably
>have the funds available to sway policy decisions in their
>favour. This present scenario is particularly dangerous
>for the environment as it is from the most powerful vested
>interests that the worst environmental damage invariably
>comes.
>
>The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform
>government to include the   voices of citizens in the
>policy making process.
>
>The Past
>The key to our freedom ~ to our fair representation ~ has
>always been the awesome power of our unity.But,
>words like "connectivity," "votable forums"  and
>"interactivity" were alien to us.  So, with no means to
>unite, we have remained fractured societies of slaves to
>the powerful.
>As things were, there was absolutely NOTHING any
>"one" of us could have done to affect meaningful change.
>In fact, we'd been so skilfully divided and conquered that,
>today, many of us actually believe our governments ARE
>democracies and that better ways to govern are
>impossible! These unfortunate misconceptions are
>products of generations of highly effective propaganda.
>
>The Future
>
>The Internet has changed everything!Now, for the first
>time in the history of civilization, we have the technology
>to create an interactive media capable of facilitating "True
>Democracy."This affordable global connectivity
>provides the facility to promote our best ideas, adopt our
>solutions and orchestrate their accomplishment.At long
>last, we are equipped to unite.
>
>We're the first generation with the means to become the imperative voice
>of reason.
>
>James


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[biofuels-biz] [biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long.

my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts:



thor:
>  And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need
> >to organize to present a coherent voice.  It’s
> >unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds
> >of independent producers individually.

Mark:

One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is
diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about
homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of
biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of
publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to
talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for
homebrewers, unless I'm asked.

Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to
deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I
certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the
general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel
organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it
for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their
website since 1998 or whenever it was?

But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since
when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team?
People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks
are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having
made a liter of homebrew first.  It's important to realize that we are not
the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers
thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap.

case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of
government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing
big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively
speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low
investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the
would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major
distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my
mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the
homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers.

And I am not interested in seeing a homebrewer association or whatever, nor
certification, nor regulations about homebrew. 'Regulation' or
standardization of our practices has to come from us, and be voluntary, and
it's come from us quite successfully so far. We're working out our own
education, with no thanks to industry, government, (well, maybe in the form
of university studies that we've learned from), nor capitalism in general.
I've heard rumors at one point that there is a certification program
that's been discussed at DOE at one point or another, and it was supposed
to be for our own good, to educate us about process and to supposedly keep
us from blowing ourselves up or whatnot. But the safety info that I teach
didn't come from any government certification program, and I'm sure it's
sticking in students' minds- and the existence of these classes and the
info covered comes straight from the homebrewers- no certifiers, government
studies,  or whatever, were needed for something like my class to come
about. Classes like I teach are an organic outgrowth of the homebrew movement.

   I've written about this elsewhere- I'm scared sh*&tless about what a
certification program or other regulations for homebrewers could lead to-
I;ve seen it in the original set of proposed USDA Organic Standards, and
the insane fight we had to put up to keep the worst of that program from
being inflicted on us. And the originally proposed USDA Organic Standards
were a result of the organic foods growers' very well-intentioned request
for standardizing and federal-izing something that the organic movement and
(independently run, nongovernment) state organics organizations were doing
a fine job of regulating. But organic food became more mainstream, and more
money was to be had in it, and someone did a dumb thing and asked the
government to step in to protect their market from a perceived threat. And
next thing you knew, here was the proposed USDA standards, the terrible,
flawed process that brought them about, and the painful battle the
grassroots movement had to fight to stop the outrageous things that big
industry snuck in there- (toxic sludge is organic if neccessary, gmo's are
organic if necessary, pesticides are organic if necessary, irradiation
(yup, if necessary!), and more... and a ban on labeling food in any manner
that gives the impression that the label is a 'higher standard' than USDA
organic (invalidating labeling food produced with established practices
like biodynamic, for instance)) so this kind of talk of certification, etc,
getting homebrewers to pres

[biofuel] Please suggest me

2002-11-26 Thread supaporn sophonputtanaphoca


Hi everybody,

  I'm a M.Sc. student from Thailand. Now I'm preparing to study abroad for 
Ph.D. program, but I still don't know which university I should to apply. My 
research interest focus on plant biomass conversion to produce ethanol as 
transportation fuel. I use fermentation process to convert plant raw materials 
into ethanol. If anyone has good advice about universities (any country), 
please help me. It will be a good choice to apply for Ph.D. program.

Many thanks,

Supaporn ^___^



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[biofuel] questions about yield

2002-11-26 Thread goat industries

When using WVO this will depend, as Ken suggested, on the quantity of animal
fat in your collected oil. Let the WVO settle into 2 layers and only use the
top, translucent layer. The bottom layer will be mostly animal fat with a
small amount of free fatty acid and is only useful for heating and specially
converted vehicles  Paddy



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[biofuel] Direct Democracy

2002-11-26 Thread milliontc

  I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following...
  Direct Democracy

   Teledemocracy   ö   E-Democracy
 

  Our present brand of ÎRepresentativeâ democracy 
has failed the environment and will continue to fail it if the 
system is not changed. Representative government puts 
almost complete power into the hands small elite groups 
- the politicians.  During the period of office this group is 
in effect a dictatorship, with no citizen involvement in 
policy making decisions. But policy is effected by that 
other elite group, the vested interests, who invariably 
have the funds available to sway policy decisions in their 
favour. This present scenario is particularly dangerous 
for the environment as it is from the most powerful vested 
interests that the worst environmental damage invariably 
comes.

The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform 
government to include the   voices of citizens in the 
policy making process.

The Past
The key to our freedom ~ to our fair representation ~ has 
always been the awesome power of our unity.But, 
words like "connectivity," "votable forums"  and 
"interactivity" were alien to us.  So, with no means to 
unite, we have remained fractured societies of slaves to 
the powerful.
As things were, there was absolutely NOTHING any 
"one" of us could have done to affect meaningful change.
In fact, we'd been so skilfully divided and conquered that, 
today, many of us actually believe our governments ARE 
democracies and that better ways to govern are 
impossible! These unfortunate misconceptions are 
products of generations of highly effective propaganda.

The Future

The Internet has changed everything!Now, for the first 
time in the history of civilization, we have the technology 
to create an interactive media capable of facilitating "True 
Democracy."This affordable global connectivity 
provides the facility to promote our best ideas, adopt our 
solutions and orchestrate their accomplishment.At long 
last, we are equipped to unite.  

We're the first generation with the means to become the imperative voice 
of reason.

James

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 




[biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to

2002-11-26 Thread girl mark

Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long.

my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts:



thor:
>  And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need
> >to organize to present a coherent voice.  It’s
> >unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds
> >of independent producers individually.

Mark:

One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is 
diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about 
homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of 
biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of 
publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to 
talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for 
homebrewers, unless I'm asked.

   Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to 
deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I 
certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the 
general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel 
organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it 
for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their 
website since 1998 or whenever it was?

But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since 
when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? 
People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks 
are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having 
made a liter of homebrew first.  It's important to realize that we are not 
the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers 
thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap.

case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of 
government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing 
big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively 
speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low 
investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the 
would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major 
distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my 
mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the 
homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers.

And I am not interested in seeing a homebrewer association or whatever, nor 
certification, nor regulations about homebrew. 'Regulation' or 
standardization of our practices has to come from us, and be voluntary, and 
it's come from us quite successfully so far. We're working out our own 
education, with no thanks to industry, government, (well, maybe in the form 
of university studies that we've learned from), nor capitalism in general.
   I've heard rumors at one point that there is a certification program 
that's been discussed at DOE at one point or another, and it was supposed 
to be for our own good, to educate us about process and to supposedly keep 
us from blowing ourselves up or whatnot. But the safety info that I teach 
didn't come from any government certification program, and I'm sure it's 
sticking in students' minds- and the existence of these classes and the 
info covered comes straight from the homebrewers- no certifiers, government 
studies,  or whatever, were needed for something like my class to come 
about. Classes like I teach are an organic outgrowth of the homebrew movement.

  I've written about this elsewhere- I'm scared sh*&tless about what a 
certification program or other regulations for homebrewers could lead to- 
I;ve seen it in the original set of proposed USDA Organic Standards, and 
the insane fight we had to put up to keep the worst of that program from 
being inflicted on us. And the originally proposed USDA Organic Standards 
were a result of the organic foods growers' very well-intentioned request 
for standardizing and federal-izing something that the organic movement and 
(independently run, nongovernment) state organics organizations were doing 
a fine job of regulating. But organic food became more mainstream, and more 
money was to be had in it, and someone did a dumb thing and asked the 
government to step in to protect their market from a perceived threat. And 
next thing you knew, here was the proposed USDA standards, the terrible, 
flawed process that brought them about, and the painful battle the 
grassroots movement had to fight to stop the outrageous things that big 
industry snuck in there- (toxic sludge is organic if neccessary, gmo's are 
organic if necessary, pesticides are organic if necessary, irradiation 
(yup, if necessary!), and more... and a ban on labeling food in any manner 
that gives the impression that the label is a 'higher standard' than USDA 
organic (invalidating labeling food produced with established practices 
like biodynamic, for instance)) so this kind of