RE: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
In the interest of clarity hopefully: Here is a link containing containerised mobile boilers which you might find interesting. I'm not yet clear if they are used inside buildings, Also they are for oil and gas boilers rather than electrical ones but I think you will agree there is a passing resemblance. http://www.crosshire.ie/boilers/boilers.php Also interesting there is a calculator for these kinds of boilers incase they are used purely for heating. i.e not some endothermic industrial purpose. I haven't gone through it for heating a warehouse say heating about 10 degrees above ambient though as I'm not sure of the volume. It might be interesting to do though http://www.crosshire.ie/calculators/ I'm not sure but perhaps this is interesting too: http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/publications/pdfs/commercial_initiative/hvac_volume2_final_report.pdf I suppose heating is not normally a big issue in Miami, but if it is needed for an industrial purpose and the heat is eventually released in the environment it is still interesting to consider its impact. I suppose the "thermal stratification" effects in buildings with high ceilings would also need to be considered, and also if the building is effectively vented as discussed else where. From: jedrothw...@gmail.com Date: Sat, 21 May 2016 20:09:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Alan Fletcher wrote: I accept your claim that 1MW in an un-ventilated, insulated room would be fatal. But that is not the case : a 30,000 CPM is sufficient to ventilate it, and there is a fan (of similar dimensions to one particular example) on the roof. (Plus convective loss, which would reduce the need for ventilation). Alan, you are missing the point!! Please read carefully: Yes, if there is a 30,000 CPM fan in the customer room, and yes if it is running the temperature will not go up. THEREFORE, in order to prove the heat is real, Rossi has to show the I.H. expert this fan. The expert has to measure the air temperature and flow with an HVAC tool such as this one: http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechAN200.asp This confirmation is essential because Rossi's own calorimetry shows no excess heat. This confirmation would be essential in any case, even if Rossi's calorimetry showed excess heat. No one is going to write a check for $89 million without taking every reasonable step to make sure the heat is real, and this is an important test to confirm that. You want to measure heat at the boiler, heat coming from the industrial equipment, and heat removed from the room by the ventilation equipment. These should be in reasonable agreement. All large HVAC equipment has to be periodically tested for safety. When they do these tests, they measure the COP of the boilers, and they measure how well the chimney and fans are working. Anyone thinking of paying $89 million will demand the same kinds of tests. Rossi presented no calorimetric data to Lewan (see my separate thread), . . . I heard he did, but I could be wrong about that. Rossi quoted enough numbers to allow a calculation of the fluid temperature. The numbers he quoted were the same as the sample I analyzed. Rossi filed his contract with IH with the court. See sections 3(c) and 5 . . . No, he did not. He is a fraud. His own data shows that his machine does not work. He tried to cover up additional proof of that by preventing access to the customer site. Rossi says (and will presumably produce in court) that IH and JM signed off on a strict separation (double-black-box) policy. JM is a shell company made by Rossi's lawyer. Their agreements mean nothing. Rossi had access to the facility. There is NO evidence at all that ERV Penon is "Rossi's" man. Yes, there is. He is also a certified idiot. If he sticks around in the U.S. he will be twice an idiot, because he will probably end up in jail. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed, if I understand you right the world is full of idiots and scammers and potential jailbirds. All technical skepticism you have been provided are done by people without common sense. You obviously have more information than anyone else (only from IH?) and that means your opinion is the one that makes sense. Although you do not say which info you have. You just say others are a little stupid or full-blown idiots for even questioning your statements. It is a wonderful world. It is totally surrounded by mirrors. Only showing the glory. religion comes to mind. Best Regards , Lennart Thornros lenn...@thornros.com +1 916 436 1899 Whatever you vividly imagine, ardently desire, sincerely believe and enthusiastically act upon, must inevitably come to pass. (PJM) On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Alan Fletcher wrote: > > I accept your claim that 1MW in an un-ventilated, insulated room would be >> fatal. >> >> But that is not the case : a 30,000 CPM is sufficient to ventilate it, >> and there is a fan (of similar dimensions to one particular example) on the >> roof. (Plus convective loss, which would reduce the need for ventilation). >> > > Alan, you are missing the point!! Please read carefully: > > Yes, if there is a 30,000 CPM fan in the customer room, and yes if it is > running the temperature will not go up. THEREFORE, in order to prove the > heat is real, Rossi has to show the I.H. expert this fan. The expert has to > measure the air temperature and flow with an HVAC tool such as this one: > > http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechAN200.asp > > This confirmation is essential because Rossi's own calorimetry shows no > excess heat. > > This confirmation would be essential in any case, even if Rossi's > calorimetry showed excess heat. No one is going to write a check for $89 > million without taking every reasonable step to make sure the heat is real, > and this is an important test to confirm that. You want to measure heat at > the boiler, heat coming from the industrial equipment, and heat removed > from the room by the ventilation equipment. These should be in reasonable > agreement. > > All large HVAC equipment has to be periodically tested for safety. When > they do these tests, they measure the COP of the boilers, and they measure > how well the chimney and fans are working. Anyone thinking of paying $89 > million will demand the same kinds of tests. > > > >> Rossi presented no calorimetric data to Lewan (see my separate thread), . >> . . >> > > I heard he did, but I could be wrong about that. Rossi quoted enough > numbers to allow a calculation of the fluid temperature. The numbers he > quoted were the same as the sample I analyzed. > > > >> Rossi filed his contract with IH with the court. See sections 3(c) and 5 >> . . . >> > > No, he did not. He is a fraud. His own data shows that his machine does > not work. He tried to cover up additional proof of that by preventing > access to the customer site. > > > >> Rossi says (and will presumably produce in court) that IH and JM signed >> off on a strict separation (double-black-box) policy. >> > > JM is a shell company made by Rossi's lawyer. Their agreements mean > nothing. Rossi had access to the facility. > > > >> There is NO evidence at all that ERV Penon is "Rossi's" man. >> > > Yes, there is. He is also a certified idiot. If he sticks around in the > U.S. he will be twice an idiot, because he will probably end up in jail. > > - Jed > >
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Alan Fletcher wrote: I accept your claim that 1MW in an un-ventilated, insulated room would be > fatal. > > But that is not the case : a 30,000 CPM is sufficient to ventilate it, and > there is a fan (of similar dimensions to one particular example) on the > roof. (Plus convective loss, which would reduce the need for ventilation). > Alan, you are missing the point!! Please read carefully: Yes, if there is a 30,000 CPM fan in the customer room, and yes if it is running the temperature will not go up. THEREFORE, in order to prove the heat is real, Rossi has to show the I.H. expert this fan. The expert has to measure the air temperature and flow with an HVAC tool such as this one: http://www.tequipment.net/ExtechAN200.asp This confirmation is essential because Rossi's own calorimetry shows no excess heat. This confirmation would be essential in any case, even if Rossi's calorimetry showed excess heat. No one is going to write a check for $89 million without taking every reasonable step to make sure the heat is real, and this is an important test to confirm that. You want to measure heat at the boiler, heat coming from the industrial equipment, and heat removed from the room by the ventilation equipment. These should be in reasonable agreement. All large HVAC equipment has to be periodically tested for safety. When they do these tests, they measure the COP of the boilers, and they measure how well the chimney and fans are working. Anyone thinking of paying $89 million will demand the same kinds of tests. > Rossi presented no calorimetric data to Lewan (see my separate thread), . > . . > I heard he did, but I could be wrong about that. Rossi quoted enough numbers to allow a calculation of the fluid temperature. The numbers he quoted were the same as the sample I analyzed. > Rossi filed his contract with IH with the court. See sections 3(c) and 5 > . . . > No, he did not. He is a fraud. His own data shows that his machine does not work. He tried to cover up additional proof of that by preventing access to the customer site. > Rossi says (and will presumably produce in court) that IH and JM signed > off on a strict separation (double-black-box) policy. > JM is a shell company made by Rossi's lawyer. Their agreements mean nothing. Rossi had access to the facility. > There is NO evidence at all that ERV Penon is "Rossi's" man. > Yes, there is. He is also a certified idiot. If he sticks around in the U.S. he will be twice an idiot, because he will probably end up in jail. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
I accept your claim that 1MW in an un-ventilated, insulated room would be fatal. But that is not the case : a 30,000 CPM is sufficient to ventilate it, and there is a fan (of similar dimensions to one particular example) on the roof. (Plus convective loss, which would reduce the need for ventilation). Rossi presented no calorimetric data to Lewan (see my separate thread), except to note that he discounted the heat needed to bring the return water to boiling point. Rossi filed his contract with IH with the court. See sections 3(c) and 5 Rossi says (and will presumably produce in court) that IH agreed to the ERV's technical specification and procedure (with modifications they requested). Rossi says (and will presumably produce in court) that IH and JM signed off on a strict separation (double-black-box) policy. There is NO evidence at all that ERV Penon is "Rossi's" man. From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 3:11:49 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal a.ashfield < a.ashfi...@verizon.net > wrote: Your claim that the heat released from the 1 MW plant would be fatal has been shot down. That was not my claim. You are making a straw-man argument. My claim was that without industrial grade ventilation, when you heat a space with 26 times more heat than is normally used in winter, and you leave the heaters on continuously without a thermostat, that space will soon be so hot it kills people. However, if there is proper ventilation, that will not happen. Therefore, in order to prove there was 1 MW of heat production, Rossi had to show the I.H. expert the ventilation equipment: the fans and ducts. The expert had to perform a conventional measurement of air temperature and flow to demonstrate that 1 MW of heat was continuously removed from the room. THAT is my claim. Do you agree or not? If not, why not? This is especially important because Rossi's own calorimetry shows no excess heat. The only way he could convince anyone is to show the customer equipment and ventilation. BQ_BEGIN Likewise, your certainty of fraud because Rossi was the one who prevented IH from visiting the customer. BQ_END Rossi was the one. He said so himself. I regard that as proof of fraud. If you do not, we have a large difference of opinion. I have several other reasons for thinking this is fraud, which I have not revealed. BQ_BEGIN Your other evidence of fraud seem to come mainly from what IH has told you. BQ_END No, it is from what Rossi himself has said, and from his calorimetric data, which shows no excess heat. I.H. played no role in my evaluation. BQ_BEGIN Before accepting that IH is a knight in shining armor who speaks only truth you should read this. BQ_END I.H. has nothing to do with it. Rossi himself provided all the proof I need that he is a fraud, mainly in his interview with Lewan. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Alan Fletcher wrote: The point is that this thread's title : "1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. > facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal" is false. > Are you saying this would not be true? Are you saying that putting 25 heaters into an enclosed room with no fan, turning them on without a thermostat, and leaving them on would not heat the space to an level that fatal level? Do you really believe that? Please explain why it would not get hot. The ERV signs off on "Guaranteed Performance", they pay. No ifs, no buts. > The test is a fraud. No court on earth would enforce payment on such a blatant, obvious fraud. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
a.ashfield wrote: > Your claim that the heat released from the 1 MW plant would be fatal has > been shot down. > That was not my claim. You are making a straw-man argument. My claim was that without industrial grade ventilation, when you heat a space with 26 times more heat than is normally used in winter, and you leave the heaters on continuously without a thermostat, that space will soon be so hot it kills people. However, if there is proper ventilation, that will not happen. Therefore, in order to prove there was 1 MW of heat production, Rossi had to show the I.H. expert the ventilation equipment: the fans and ducts. The expert had to perform a conventional measurement of air temperature and flow to demonstrate that 1 MW of heat was continuously removed from the room. THAT is my claim. Do you agree or not? If not, why not? This is especially important because Rossi's own calorimetry shows no excess heat. The only way he could convince anyone is to show the customer equipment and ventilation. > Likewise, your certainty of fraud because Rossi was the one who prevented > IH from visiting the customer. > Rossi was the one. He said so himself. I regard that as proof of fraud. If you do not, we have a large difference of opinion. I have several other reasons for thinking this is fraud, which I have not revealed. > Your other evidence of fraud seem to come mainly from what IH has told you. No, it is from what Rossi himself has said, and from his calorimetric data, which shows no excess heat. I.H. played no role in my evaluation. >Before accepting that IH is a knight in shining armor who speaks only > truth you should read this. I.H. has nothing to do with it. Rossi himself provided all the proof I need that he is a fraud, mainly in his interview with Lewan. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed, Your claim that the heat released from the 1 MW plant would be fatal has been shot down. Likewise, your certainty of fraud because Rossi was the one who prevented IH from visiting the customer. Your other evidence of fraud seem to come mainly from what IH has told you. Before accepting that IH is a knight in shining armor who speaks only truth you should read this. Tom Darden was directly involved. Meadowlands Remediation and Redevelopment Project http://nj.gov/comptroller/news/oig/pdf/Meadowlands%20Remediation%20and%20Redevelopment%20Project.pdf
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
The point is that this thread's title : "1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal" is false. On the contract point, re-read the IH/Rossi contract https://animpossibleinvention.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/rossi_et_al_v_darden_et_al__flsdce-16-21199__0001-2.pdf sections 3(c) and 5. The ERV signs off on "Guaranteed Performance", they pay. No ifs, no buts. (On the earlier acceptance test they had a "discuss with the ERV" clause, but not on the $89M.) From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 1:50:40 PM The point is, it was incumbent upon Rossi to show that fan to the I.H. expert and to let him measure the air temperature and flow rate. This was a professional evaluation. You cannot take someone's word for something in this situation. Especially not before signing a check for $89 million. That would be unthinkable.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Alan Fletcher wrote: The roof has one circular roof fan at the left, and a rectangular box at > the other. > I believe the box on the right is a skylight window. We are talking about this photo, which I think was taken in 2014. That's when the street view photos were taken. https://www.google.com/maps/@25.8155624,-80.3248408,26m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en > Conclusion : allowing for heat loss through the ceiling, 1MW can be safely > dissipated by a fan of this size. > The point is, it was incumbent upon Rossi to show that fan to the I.H. expert and to let him measure the air temperature and flow rate. This was a professional evaluation. You cannot take someone's word for something in this situation. Especially not before signing a check for $89 million. That would be unthinkable. If the fan and duct air temperature and flow prove the excess heat is real, Rossi would be crazy not to show them to I.H. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
The roof has one circular roof fan at the left, and a rectangular box at the other. Presuming that the manufacturing area was was adjacent to JM's offices (on the left) the left-most circular fan vents the manufacturing area. Heres the fan : http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/160521_fans_01.jpg ( 7 pixels) And a small car (6 feet wide). http://lenr.qumbu.com/steampics/160521_fans_02.jpg (10 pixels) That gives the diameter of the fan as about 50 inches. Here's a 32,000 CFM roof fan that fits (49 inch outside diameter) : http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-R-B/LFI-RD42T3750CM.html Conclusion : allowing for heat loss through the ceiling, 1MW can be safely dissipated by a fan of this size.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
John wrote: > Your assumption that all the power used by the customer's plant must end > up in heat in the room is not valid. A quick search of J.M Products Corp > indicates that they are in the chemicals business - wholesale and > *manufacturing*. I am not a chemist but I would guess that there are > plenty of endothermic chemical reactions that would absorb heat energy to > change one set of chemicals into another. > An endothermic industrial processes turns only a tiny fraction of the heat into chemical bonds. The rest is waste heat. A typical process is cooking or canning food. When you bake a cake, nearly all the heat ends up as waste heat in the kitchen. Only a little goes into changing the chemical bonds in the cake. > Much the same as a hectare of crop absorbs radiant heat from the sun to > change water and CO2 into stored energy which is then trucked away to > market. > Photosynthesis is 3 to 6% efficient. 94% is waste heat. > My guess is that some process they are using to manufacture useful > chemicals not only converts heat energy into chemical energy (which then > exits the building by truck), but that this process also contains some > confidential know-how that the company does not want their competitors to > find out about. So this would be a perfectly good reason why they would > rather not have smart people getting a good look at exactly what goes on in > their chemical manufacturing process and so wrote that condition into the > contract. > 1. There is nothing going on there. There are no people and no noise. 2. They let Rossi in whenever he wants to go. If anyone is likely to steal IP, he would be. 3. This is registered as a chemical distribution warehouse. If they are running large industrial equipment they are violating the law. Such equipment has to be inspected on a regular basis. 4. An expert HVAC engineer would not have to look closely at the equipment to measure the heat flow, and even if he did, he could not magically steal the IP. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
There isn't evidence for almost everything besides words from IH and Rossi/Lewan. But the area required for cooling is small, so I don't think that this point is a big issue. 2016-05-21 16:56 GMT-03:00 David Roberson : > Is there evidence for the existence of an input opening adequate to > achieve this requirement? Are all the doors and windows closed? > > >
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
a.ashfield wrote: > There is a difference between saying "in my opinion Rossi is a fraud" and > a statement of fact, that you have made several times. "Rossi is a fraud." Okay, let me put it this way: The evidence that he is a fraud is now overwhelming in my opinion. > For the latter you could be sued for libel in court. > Not if he is a fraud. Anyway, I am not worried about that. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Air must come into the building to replace the heated air that is exhausted. Is there evidence for the existence of an input opening adequate to achieve this requirement? Are all the doors and windows closed? Dave -Original Message- From: Daniel Rocha To: John Milstone Sent: Sat, May 21, 2016 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal That's a surprisingly small volume. The machine has one of its smaller dimensions 3 meters. So, even 1.5m/s per second at one end would cool the device. 2016-05-21 15:51 GMT-03:00 Alan Fletcher : Back-of-the-envelope calculation I'm going to look at a column of air of volume V -- with area A ... and a height H sufficient to hold 1-second's worth of 1MW of heat. This has to be vented in 1 second. 1MW is 1000 kJ /second. Q = 1000 kJ in one second Specific heat of air at 100C is 1 kJ / (kg K) Density of air at 100C is r = 1kg/m^3 http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html Ambient air is 20C, heated air is 100C dK = 80 Q = S * dK * M Mass = 1kg * r * V = r * V Q = S * dK * r * V Solve for V : V = Q / ( S * dK * r ) = 1000 / ( 1. * 80 * 1.) = 12.5 m^3 per SECOND = 750 m^3 per MINUTE = 26,486 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) That's a teeny tiny little fan! http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/wall-ventilation.html?&gclid=CIb8x7zb68wCFQEJaQodk4AMnQ From: "Alan Fletcher" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 10:37:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal This chimney sizing link doesn't really apply --- it's for natural draft up a chimney of a given height and diameter -- WITHOUT a fan. (The longer the chimney the higher velocity of the draft, so a given diameter can exhaust more heat. They recommend "The velocity of air and flue gas in a smaller furnace should not exceed 2 m/s. " -- so I presume that the charts are based on this, and not the maximum 10m/s.). I haven't put a ruler on the aerial photos of the vents on the roof ... but it looks like they could easily be 22 inches. Since a 22-inch vent WITHOUT a fan at a velocity of 2 m/s can handle 1MW, it seems likely that a vent WITH a fan could also do so. There's probably a vent/fan sizing chart somewhere, but this isn't it. From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 9:16:31 AM As I said, 1 MW in this space would be like running 16 space heating furnaces continuously without thermostats. To remove that much heat, you need a 22" vent and a large fan. An expert from I.H. would have to confirm this ventilation equipment is installed and working to confirm the claim. 1 MW of heat release calls for at least at 22" vent: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.html -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
> Rossi himself revealed some of the most important details in his interview > with Lewan. His numbers show that the temperature was close to 100 deg C. I can't find that statement in Lewan's interview : https://animpossibleinvention.com/2016/05/16/rossi-makes-offer-on-swedish-factory-building-plus-more-updates/ The only mention of boiling point is that he ignores the energy used to raise the return water from 60C (variable) to the boiling point (100C+-). This (with the arbitrary 10% reduction) is very conservative. If the planned operating temperature was around 100C then I'd sure put into the specification a measurement of the steam quality, or a measurement of the pressure to ensure that it's not in the wet/dry range. If I were IH I certainly wouldn't have given the final decision directly to the ERV, without an appeal/audit option. From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 10:00:49 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal Peter Gluck < peter.gl...@gmail.com > wrote: Jed you say you know the data but have to keep them secret. Correct? Rossi himself revealed some of the most important details in his interview with Lewan. His numbers show that the temperature was close to 100 deg C.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Why do you assume there were no tubes taking the heat through the ceiling. Even in the 10/28/2011 1MW there were. And indeed, there was a model of fan similar to the smallest model displayed on the site you gave the link. At least that I could see in the video by Mats Lewan. 2016-05-21 16:37 GMT-03:00 Alan Fletcher : > And that's assuming the air is vented directly from the machine to the > fan. It would actually rise by convection, spread over the whole ceiling, > and lose a lot of heat through the roof. > > I think this puts it WAY below the "fatal" level. > > >
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
And that's assuming the air is vented directly from the machine to the fan. It would actually rise by convection, spread over the whole ceiling, and lose a lot of heat through the roof. I think this puts it WAY below the "fatal" level. From: "Daniel Rocha" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 12:29:44 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal That's a surprisingly small volume. The machine has one of its smaller dimensions 3 meters. So, even 1.5m/s per second at one end would cool the device.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Previous link was for wall-mounted fans. I think the sub-unit has two roof fans, so 2 * 16K CFM 36 inch fans would do the job. eg http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-R-TXB/SP-TXB36RHULWH3S.html From: "Alan Fletcher" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 12:21:04 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal Correction ... the photos on that page were lower CFM ... 36 to 42 inch diameter, not so teeny tiny. eg http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-EF-PM-A/LFI-ADD36T11000B.html 30K CFM, 36 inch From: "Alan Fletcher" That's a teeny tiny little fan! http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/wall-ventilation.html?&gclid=CIb8x7zb68wCFQEJaQodk4AMnQ
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
That's a surprisingly small volume. The machine has one of its smaller dimensions 3 meters. So, even 1.5m/s per second at one end would cool the device. 2016-05-21 15:51 GMT-03:00 Alan Fletcher : > Back-of-the-envelope calculation > > I'm going to look at a column of air of volume V -- with area A ... and a > height H sufficient to hold > 1-second's worth of 1MW of heat. This has to be vented in 1 second. > > 1MW is 1000 kJ /second. > Q = 1000 kJ in one second > > Specific heat of air at 100C is 1 kJ / (kg K) > Density of air at 100C is r = 1kg/m^3 > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html > > Ambient air is 20C, heated air is 100C dK = 80 > > Q = S * dK * M > > > Mass = 1kg * r * V = r * V > > Q = S * dK * r * V > > Solve for V : > > V = Q / ( S * dK * r ) = 1000 / ( 1. * 80 * 1.) > = 12.5 m^3 per SECOND > = 750 m^3 per MINUTE > > = 26,486 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) > > That's a teeny tiny little fan! > > http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/wall-ventilation.html?&gclid=CIb8x7zb68wCFQEJaQodk4AMnQ > > ---------------------- > *From: *"Alan Fletcher" > *To: *"vortex-l" > *Sent: *Saturday, May 21, 2016 10:37:55 AM > *Subject: *Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without > industrial ventilation would be fatal > > This chimney sizing link doesn't really apply --- it's for natural draft > up a chimney of a given height and diameter -- WITHOUT a fan. > > (The longer the chimney the higher velocity of the draft, so a given > diameter can exhaust more heat. They recommend "The velocity of air and > flue gas in a smaller furnace should not exceed *2 m/s*. " -- so I > presume that the charts are based on this, and not the maximum 10m/s.). > > I haven't put a ruler on the aerial photos of the vents on the roof ... > but it looks like they could easily be 22 inches. > > Since a 22-inch vent WITHOUT a fan at a velocity of 2 m/s can handle 1MW, > it seems likely that a vent WITH a fan could also do so. > > There's probably a vent/fan sizing chart somewhere, but this isn't it. > > -- > *From: *"Jed Rothwell" > *To: *"vortex-l" > *Sent: *Saturday, May 21, 2016 9:16:31 AM > As I said, 1 MW in this space would be like running 16 space heating > furnaces continuously without thermostats. To remove that much heat, you > need a 22" vent and a large fan. An expert from I.H. would have to confirm > this ventilation equipment is installed and working to confirm the claim. 1 > MW of heat release calls for at least at 22" vent: > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.html > > -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Correction ... the photos on that page were lower CFM ... 36 to 42 inch diameter, not so teeny tiny. eg http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/IND-FA-EF-PM-A/LFI-ADD36T11000B.html 30K CFM, 36 inch From: "Alan Fletcher" That's a teeny tiny little fan! http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/wall-ventilation.html?&gclid=CIb8x7zb68wCFQEJaQodk4AMnQ
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Back-of-the-envelope calculation I'm going to look at a column of air of volume V -- with area A ... and a height H sufficient to hold 1-second's worth of 1MW of heat. This has to be vented in 1 second. 1MW is 1000 kJ /second. Q = 1000 kJ in one second Specific heat of air at 100C is 1 kJ / (kg K) Density of air at 100C is r = 1kg/m^3 http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-properties-d_156.html Ambient air is 20C, heated air is 100C dK = 80 Q = S * dK * M Mass = 1kg * r * V = r * V Q = S * dK * r * V Solve for V : V = Q / ( S * dK * r ) = 1000 / ( 1. * 80 * 1.) = 12.5 m^3 per SECOND = 750 m^3 per MINUTE = 26,486 CFM (Cubic Feet per Minute) That's a teeny tiny little fan! http://www.industrialfansdirect.com/wall-ventilation.html?&gclid=CIb8x7zb68wCFQEJaQodk4AMnQ From: "Alan Fletcher" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 10:37:55 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal This chimney sizing link doesn't really apply --- it's for natural draft up a chimney of a given height and diameter -- WITHOUT a fan. (The longer the chimney the higher velocity of the draft, so a given diameter can exhaust more heat. They recommend " The velocity of air and flue gas in a smaller furnace should not exceed 2 m/s . " -- so I presume that the charts are based on this, and not the maximum 10m/s. ). I haven't put a ruler on the aerial photos of the vents on the roof ... but it looks like they could easily be 22 inches. Since a 22-inch vent WITHOUT a fan at a velocity of 2 m/s can handle 1MW, it seems likely that a vent WITH a fan could also do so. There's probably a vent/fan sizing chart somewhere, but this isn't it. From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 9:16:31 AM As I said, 1 MW in this space would be like running 16 space heating furnaces continuously without thermostats. To remove that much heat, you need a 22" vent and a large fan. An expert from I.H. would have to confirm this ventilation equipment is installed and working to confirm the claim. 1 MW of heat release calls for at least at 22" vent: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.html
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
On 21/05/2016 11:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Once again people have claimed you can release 1 MW with no ill effects in a small facility, without industrial scale ventilation. People should apply some common sense metrics! Rossi says the facility is 6,500 sq. feet. Conventional heating calls for no more than 20 BTU/sq. ft. in Florida. That's 130,000 BTU. 1 MW is 3,412,142 BTU/h. So that is 26 times more heat than normal heating would supply. More to the point, it would not be thermostatically controlled. It would be turned on continuously. If you turned on 26 times more room heating furnaces than normal, and left them on at full blast, obviously the room would soon be too hot for a person to survive in. Your assumption that all the power used by the customer's plant must end up in heat in the room is not valid. A quick search of J.M Products Corp indicates that they are in the chemicals business - wholesale and _manufacturing_. I am not a chemist but I would guess that there are plenty of endothermic chemical reactions that would absorb heat energy to change one set of chemicals into another. Much the same as a hectare of crop absorbs radiant heat from the sun to change water and CO2 into stored energy which is then trucked away to market. My guess is that some process they are using to manufacture useful chemicals not only converts heat energy into chemical energy (which then exits the building by truck), but that this process also contains some confidential know-how that the company does not want their competitors to find out about. So this would be a perfectly good reason why they would rather not have smart people getting a good look at exactly what goes on in their chemical manufacturing process and so wrote that condition into the contract. After all it _really should be possible_ to accurately determine energy transfer by measuring temperature and flow rate at the single inlet (specially since Rossi discounts the lack of heat in the return pipe). Also the amount of heating or cooling that an area needs depends entirely on the temperature in neighboring volumes and heat leak rate to or from those volumes. Thus in a large-area multi-story building the central zones _always need cooling_ even when outside air is cold and the perimeter zones need strong heating to cope with the heat loss through the outside walls. While it may be valid in very simple cases to estimate heating or cooling requirement from _floor area_, in general this must be useless because for a factory which runs 24/7 hardly any of the heat is lost through the floor (once it reaches equilibrium), but rather through the walls and ceiling - which must depend heavily on their level of insulation and whether neighboring volumes are temperature controlled or not.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
This chimney sizing link doesn't really apply --- it's for natural draft up a chimney of a given height and diameter -- WITHOUT a fan. (The longer the chimney the higher velocity of the draft, so a given diameter can exhaust more heat. They recommend " The velocity of air and flue gas in a smaller furnace should not exceed 2 m/s . " -- so I presume that the charts are based on this, and not the maximum 10m/s. ). I haven't put a ruler on the aerial photos of the vents on the roof ... but it looks like they could easily be 22 inches. Since a 22-inch vent WITHOUT a fan at a velocity of 2 m/s can handle 1MW, it seems likely that a vent WITH a fan could also do so. There's probably a vent/fan sizing chart somewhere, but this isn't it. From: "Jed Rothwell" To: "vortex-l" Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 9:16:31 AM As I said, 1 MW in this space would be like running 16 space heating furnaces continuously without thermostats. To remove that much heat, you need a 22" vent and a large fan. An expert from I.H. would have to confirm this ventilation equipment is installed and working to confirm the claim. 1 MW of heat release calls for at least at 22" vent: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.html
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed, If, as likely, the output of the E-Cats was not much above 100C, one would need some provision to ensure there wasn't excessive water carry over. Indeed without that the whole system might fill with liquid. Until shown otherwise I expect that was done. I also expect the steam to be wet in this circumstance and for accurate calorimetry some provision would have to be made to measure the wetness.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed, There is a difference between saying "in my opinion Rossi is a fraud" and a statement of fact, that you have made several times. "Rossi is a fraud." For the latter you could be sued for libel in court.
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Peter Gluck wrote: Jed you say you know the data but have to keep them secret. > Correct? > Rossi himself revealed some of the most important details in his interview with Lewan. His numbers show that the temperature was close to 100 deg C. With just a little pressure, a slight error in the temperature measurement, or a little antifreeze in the water, there would be no steam. Just hot water. Other data confirms that was the case. That eliminates most of the enthalpy. He made other large errors which eliminate the rest. You do not need any information from me to confirm this. > Can you please tell the most 'innocent' ones- the daily consumes of > electric energy from the grid by the 1MW plant? > I know what Rossi claimed. He says the output was 1000 kW and that was 50 times input, so the input would be 20 kW. I cannot vouch for that. He did not describe how input power was measured. However, looking at the machine, the temperature in the equipment shipping container, and considering the smaller prototypes, ~20 kW sounds about right to me. This is also roughly how much heat the calorimetry shows was released by the machine and the cooling loop. The calorimetry was dreadful -- the error margins were huge! -- but after correcting for Rossi's idiotic mistakes it was about 20 kW. (Maybe these were Penon's idiotic mistakes. I wouldn't know.) Experts say they have done better calorimetry, and confirmed there was no excess heat. I have no knowledge of the details. I have only seen Rossi's data and methods. I am now sure it was Rossi's because the numbers were the same as the ones he gave Lewan. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed you say you know the data but have to keep them secret. Correct? Can you please tell the most 'innocent' ones- the daily consumes of electric energy from the grid by the 1MW plant? peter On Sat, May 21, 2016 at 7:16 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > a.ashfield wrote: > > >> Jed, I gave you one example from first hand experience, that was a 1.5 >> ton/day art glass furnace and someone else provided examples of 4 MW >> boilers. So common sense tells me it is not unreasonable to do so. >> > > How much power did your glass furnace consume? > > Was the facility enclosed, or was it open to the outside? The large kilns > and glass making furnaces I have seen had open walls, like a steel mill, so > they did not need as much ventilation equipment as an enclosed space. > > It is not unreasonable to run this kind of equipment in the enclosed > customer warehouse as long as there is industrial scale ventilation. But > the I.H. expert would have to confirm there is such equipment, and it is > operating. He would have to measure the heat flow. > > As I said, 1 MW in this space would be like running 16 space heating > furnaces continuously without thermostats. To remove that much heat, you > need a 22" vent and a large fan. An expert from I.H. would have to confirm > this ventilation equipment is installed and working to confirm the claim. 1 > MW of heat release calls for at least at 22" vent: > > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.html > > A 4 MW boilers in an enclosed space needs even larger vents and fans. > > Portable 1 MW Diesel electric generators produce 3 MW of waste heat. They > cannot be operated indoors. They are outdoors, and they have large built in > radiators that produce a massive flow of hot air, similar to railroad > locomotive cooling. Much larger than semi-truck engine radiators. Here is a > photo of a 1 MW generator: > > http://www.turbinemarine.com/generators.html > > - Jed > > -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
a.ashfield wrote: > Assuming Rossi (and others) are guilty before the trial is not the > American way. > This only applies to the courts and the legal system. A citizen outside the legal system is free to decide someone is guilty or innocent. That is no violation of tradition or law. I am not a judge or lawyer, so I can have any opinion I like, and I can express all I want. That's free speech, which is the American way. It is obvious to me that Rossi is guilty. He admitted it himself when told Lewan that he did allow the I.H. expert into the customer facility. By saying that, he didn't just admit he was a fraud. He bragged about it! - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
a.ashfield wrote: > Jed, I gave you one example from first hand experience, that was a 1.5 > ton/day art glass furnace and someone else provided examples of 4 MW > boilers. So common sense tells me it is not unreasonable to do so. > How much power did your glass furnace consume? Was the facility enclosed, or was it open to the outside? The large kilns and glass making furnaces I have seen had open walls, like a steel mill, so they did not need as much ventilation equipment as an enclosed space. It is not unreasonable to run this kind of equipment in the enclosed customer warehouse as long as there is industrial scale ventilation. But the I.H. expert would have to confirm there is such equipment, and it is operating. He would have to measure the heat flow. As I said, 1 MW in this space would be like running 16 space heating furnaces continuously without thermostats. To remove that much heat, you need a 22" vent and a large fan. An expert from I.H. would have to confirm this ventilation equipment is installed and working to confirm the claim. 1 MW of heat release calls for at least at 22" vent: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/chimney-sizing-d_175.html A 4 MW boilers in an enclosed space needs even larger vents and fans. Portable 1 MW Diesel electric generators produce 3 MW of waste heat. They cannot be operated indoors. They are outdoors, and they have large built in radiators that produce a massive flow of hot air, similar to railroad locomotive cooling. Much larger than semi-truck engine radiators. Here is a photo of a 1 MW generator: http://www.turbinemarine.com/generators.html - Jed
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed, Assuming Rossi (and others) are guilty before the trial is not the American way. Or do you prefer Napoleonic law?
Re: [Vo]:1 MW of heat in a 6,500 sq. ft. facility without industrial ventilation would be fatal
Jed. "Once again people have claimed you can release 1 MW with no ill effects in a small facility, without industrial scale ventilation. People should apply some common sense metrics!" Jed, I gave you one example from first hand experience, that was a 1.5 ton/day art glass furnace and someone else provided examples of 4 MW boilers. So common sense tells me it is not unreasonable to do so.