Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Robert Livingston]

Thanks a lot, Tim.

This worked for me.

My app is unsigned. (I do not have an Apple Developer ID)




My "App" when it appeared after being "unzipped" happens to sit in a folder 
with some other files. The zipped file is a folder with the App and a couple 
other files. That just happens to be how I distributed it. Call that folder A

First I tried putting the zipped file in the Application folder and unzipping 
it there and trying to run the App from the folder (A) that it is distributed 
in. That did not work. At this point that folder (A) is a subfolder of the 
Applications folder. And the App is sitting in this subfolder of the 
Applications folder. The magic does not extend into a subfolder.

Then I took the unzipped App itself and took it from its created subfolder(A) 
and put it directly in the Applications folder. Then it DID work. I am very 
grateful to having been pointed to this solution.

Now, for my users, I have to include an additional layer of explanation but at 
least it is doable and I do not have to tell them to do something obscure with 
Terminal or whatever.



Once it has been run once, I can take that App and put it back in the folder A 
and it will continue to work. In fact, I can put it anywhere and it will run. 
Just like any application you might have. Putting apps in the Application 
folder has always been an arbitrary sensible thing to do, but not required. 
Just like putting pictures in the Pictures folder.

This is the first time to my knowledge that the Application folder has some 
special magic to it.

The App will not initially run from the Downloads folder. As best I can tell, 
it will not run from ANY folder other than the Application folder for that 
initial launch. And it cannot be in a subfolder of the Applications folder. It 
has to first be run from the Applications folder itself. 

After that, the App can be put anywhere as best I can tell. . 

I have other apps that I distribute via the Internet using another programming 
environment. (Xojo). Those apps do not have this same problem. The recipient 
can run them from anywhere. So 4D has some other ingredient that allows it to 
be locked up.



This all applies currently to 4D apps downloaded from the Internet. I could 
send someone the zipped 4D file in an email message and currently the recipient 
would not run into any trouble running it from where ever they want.






> On Nov 14, 2016, at 10:04 AM, Timothy Penner  wrote:
> 
> Solution is to move it to the /Applications/ directory after unzipping it.

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Re: Store BLOB's Outside the Data File

[Wayne Stewart]

Doug,

That sounds correct. Did you tick both boxes?

http://www.4dsupport.guru/images/CompactAddressTable.png

Personally I stopped doing that I kept losing too many .jpgs that way :(


Regards,

Wayne


Wayne Stewart
about.me/waynestewart




On 15 November 2016 at 12:38, Douglas von Roeder  wrote:
> Working in a 13.5 C/S app on Windows.
>
> When I change the storage location of a BLOB field and a 4D Write picture
> field from "in the data file" to "Outside the data file", it appears that
> I'm not able to get 4D to move the BLOB's or 4D Write picture fields out of
> the data file.
>
> I've run a routine to update a field (and then remove the update) in each
> record as well as running the data file through Advanced Compact. Both of
> these efforts were carried out per the advice in the Tech Tip entitled
> "Moving contents of blob outside datafile" (KB asset 76911).
>
> One  table has a few dozen records with BLOB's while the table with the 4D
> Write picture fields has 62k recs.
>
> When I ran Advanced Compact, my expectation was that the BLOB's and Picture
> fields would be located in a folder adjacent to the data file. After doing
> the Advanced Compact, the data file size was reduced from 19.01 to 18.55 GB
> but there were no other files in the folder containing the 4DD, 4DIndx, and
> Match files.
>
> The application will be updated to V15.x in the near future but I'd like to
> support this architectural change while the app is still in V13.5
>
> Any insights into this or advice would be greatly appreciated.
>
> --
> Douglas von Roeder
> 949-336-2902
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It's the little things (ordering parameters)

[David Adams]

For those of you that pass parameters, order can matter. It's been, what,
30 years now I've been using 4D (!)  and I *still* have to double-check
Position and Find in array

Position(Needle;Haystack)
Find in array(Haystack;Needle)

So, just thinking, be kind to yourself...find a pattern and follow it. I
end up going back from time to time and reworking parameter lists in
related code to keep arguments the same or at least in the same order.
Granted, sometimes you don't have the same list of parameters, but at least
keeping chains in the same order is a help.
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v12 - easy way to rename many methods at once?

[Chip Scheide]

I what to rename a number of methods.
the 'module' prefix is no longer valid/desired
I would like to change the names of all the methods at once, rather 
then having to rename them 1 at a time.

Thanks
Chip
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Peter Mew]

Have I read this correctly?
If I write a small standalone app, for a friend, zip it and send it to him,
At some time in the future, there will be an Mac OS version which will say
the equivalent of "I'm sorry Dave, I cant let you do that".
Has the world of Apple gone mad?
-pm

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Timothy Penner  wrote:

> > actually - what I was pointing out is that Apple is doing all of this
> security on applications which are (supposedly) 'safe', as in they have
> been signed, presumably by Apple itself.
> > What are they doing to apps that are not signed?
>
> ^ My thoughts exactly... If the signed code (safer of the two) is being
> quarantined to a read only environment, then just imagine the restrictions
> Apple will put on unsigned code.
>
> > ANd is this the next step in forcing all applications t use the "app
> store" and the forced end of most "free form" programming?  (4D databases
> would fall into this category)
>
> ^ We will just have to wait and see what Apple changes next
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Tim PENNER
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Timothy Penner]

> actually - what I was pointing out is that Apple is doing all of this 
> security on applications which are (supposedly) 'safe', as in they have been 
> signed, presumably by Apple itself.
> What are they doing to apps that are not signed?

^ My thoughts exactly... If the signed code (safer of the two) is being 
quarantined to a read only environment, then just imagine the restrictions 
Apple will put on unsigned code.

> ANd is this the next step in forcing all applications t use the "app store" 
> and the forced end of most "free form" programming?  (4D databases would fall 
> into this category)

^ We will just have to wait and see what Apple changes next

Kind Regards,

Tim PENNER
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Timothy Penner]

Hi Chip,

> also notice this si specifically referencing "Signed Applications"

Yes this is information came from Apple's changes to Gatekeeper, and is 
referenced in the documentation for code signing under the "Shipping your 
signed code" section.

Although, if you think it doesn't/shouldn't apply to non-signed app, well, I 
don't think that Apple's gatekeeper would provide a less-secure environment for 
non-signed apps, so whether or not your app is signed, it probably should not 
be running from the Downloads directory.

-Tim

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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Chip Scheide]

also notice this si specifically referencing "Signed Applications"

On Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:36:28 +0100, Timothy Penner wrote:
> Sorry Chip, I don’t know, I was paraphrasing the docs:
> 
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17
> 
> "This also applies to apps installed via ZIP or other archive formats 
> or apps downloaded to the Downloads directory: ask the user to drag 
> the app to /Applications and launch it from there."
> 
> Full quote:
> --
> Shipping your Signed Code
> The preferred way to ship a signed app is via the Mac App Store. The 
> Mac App Store provides a secure channel for app delivery and 
> installation that requires minimal action on the part of the user.
> 
> For distribution outside of the Mac App Store, the preferred options 
> are to use a signed disk image (DMG) or signed installer package. 
> Signing these allows validation of the contents and their source. ZIP 
> archives may also be used, but this is discouraged.
> 
> If using a disk image to ship an app, users should drag the app from 
> the image to its desired installation location (usually 
> /Applications) before launching it. This also applies to apps 
> installed via ZIP or other archive formats or apps downloaded to the 
> Downloads directory: ask the user to drag the app to /Applications 
> and launch it from there.
> 
> This practice avoids an attack where a validly signed app launched 
> from a disk image, ZIP archive, or ISO (CD/DVD) image can load 
> malicious code or content from untrusted locations on the same image 
> or archive. Starting with macOS Sierra, running a newly-downloaded 
> app from a disk image, archive, or the Downloads directory will cause 
> Gatekeeper to isolate that app at a unspecified read-only location in 
> the filesystem. This will prevent the app from accessing code or 
> content using relative paths.
> 
> Do not ship apps using ISO images. There is no provision for signing these.
> 
> Important: Starting with macOS Sierra, only XIP archives signed by 
> Apple will be expanded. Developers who have been using XIP archives 
> will need to move to using signed installer packages or disk images.
> --
> 
> ^Notice above it specifically mentions moving the application to the 
> /Applications directory
> 
> -Tim
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Timothy Penner]

I should have also highlighted this quote from:

"Starting with macOS Sierra, running a newly-downloaded app from a disk image, 
archive, or the Downloads directory will cause Gatekeeper to isolate that app 
at a unspecified read-only location in the filesystem. This will prevent the 
app from accessing code or content using relative paths."

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17

-Tim
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Timothy Penner]

Sorry Chip, I don’t know, I was paraphrasing the docs:
https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17

"This also applies to apps installed via ZIP or other archive formats or apps 
downloaded to the Downloads directory: ask the user to drag the app to 
/Applications and launch it from there."

Full quote:
--
Shipping your Signed Code
The preferred way to ship a signed app is via the Mac App Store. The Mac App 
Store provides a secure channel for app delivery and installation that requires 
minimal action on the part of the user.

For distribution outside of the Mac App Store, the preferred options are to use 
a signed disk image (DMG) or signed installer package. Signing these allows 
validation of the contents and their source. ZIP archives may also be used, but 
this is discouraged.

If using a disk image to ship an app, users should drag the app from the image 
to its desired installation location (usually /Applications) before launching 
it. This also applies to apps installed via ZIP or other archive formats or 
apps downloaded to the Downloads directory: ask the user to drag the app to 
/Applications and launch it from there.

This practice avoids an attack where a validly signed app launched from a disk 
image, ZIP archive, or ISO (CD/DVD) image can load malicious code or content 
from untrusted locations on the same image or archive. Starting with macOS 
Sierra, running a newly-downloaded app from a disk image, archive, or the 
Downloads directory will cause Gatekeeper to isolate that app at a unspecified 
read-only location in the filesystem. This will prevent the app from accessing 
code or content using relative paths.

Do not ship apps using ISO images. There is no provision for signing these.

Important: Starting with macOS Sierra, only XIP archives signed by Apple will 
be expanded. Developers who have been using XIP archives will need to move to 
using signed installer packages or disk images.
--

^Notice above it specifically mentions moving the application to the 
/Applications directory

-Tim
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RE: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Timothy Penner]

Starting with 10.12.x Sierra, if you download an app.zip and unzip it then run 
it from the Downloads directory, Apple will quarantine the app into a Read-Only 
environment. Solution is to move it to the /Applications/ directory after 
unzipping it.

Kind Regards,

Tim PENNER
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Modify Style Sheets Programmatically?

[Randy Engle]

I'm pretty sure this has been asked before, with a negative answer:

I've looked again, but can't find anything,

Any way to modify a style sheet programmatically, for form objects?

(we can do this in 4D Write Style sheets)

Thanks

Randy Engle
XC2 Software LLC



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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Robert Livingston]

I did look at this because I thought that the problem might be here but not. In 
this regard (Sharing & Permissions) the "quarantined" and the "non-quarantined" 
versions of the zip file are the same. 

There is another section in the Get Info panel -- "More Info" where there is a 
bit of "metadata" called Where from: which tells you from where the 
"quarantined" version was downloaded.

Non-quarantined version does not have this (Obviously because it was not 
downloaded from anywhere)



> On Nov 14, 2016, at 8:26 AM, Peter Bozek  wrote:
> 
> Can you check the access rights you have? Click on application and select
> menu File -> Get Info (or command - I.) At the bottom you will find a
> Permissions tab with table showing who has the rights to read and write
> rights. From your description, it seems you have only read but not write
> rights.

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Peter Bozek]

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Robert Livingston 
wrote:

> So somehow even after you have said that you want to open the file, you
> cannot. In some fashion 4D sees it locked and no matter how you answer the
> dialogs you cannot get the application to run.
>

Can you check the access rights you have? Click on application and select
menu File -> Get Info (or command - I.) At the bottom you will find a
Permissions tab with table showing who has the rights to read and write
rights. From your description, it seems you have only read but not write
rights.

It would be strange, though, as unarchiving ZIP should reset file
permissions to original state (which was read-write.) Maybe macOS assigns
ownership  of applications from downloaded zip archives to guest, and not
to you. Have not seen that, but I am still running 10.10.

-- 

Peter Bozek
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Keith Culotta]

If you don't mind an installer package rather than a Zip, this got around that 
problem for me.  It requires your Apple developer number (ABC...).  I run the 
app at least once from the Applications folder, and make no resource folder, 
etc... changes after that.  Then run this from the terminal.  

productbuild --component /Applications/MyApp.app /Applications MyApp.pkg --sign 
"Developer ID Installer: A Name (ABCDEFGHIJ)"

Some translation:
productbuild --component /WhereTheAppIsNow /InstallingPutsItHere 
installer.pkg.is .created.here --sign "Developer ID 
Installer: KeychainName (ABCDEFGHIJ)"

See man productbuild in the Terminal.

Keith - CDI

> On Nov 14, 2016, at 9:45 AM, Robert Livingston  wrote:
> 
> Thanks for your input.
> 
> But I have tried using a DMG of the application and the same problem occurs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2016, at 7:38 AM, spiffyguy  wrote:
>> 
>> Apple may change the permission from zip files as you experienced.  Perhaps
>> for mac it would be better to make a DMG of your app that people can
>> download from Amazon AWS.
>> 
>> They would get the "Are you sure you want to open..." alert when they opened
>> the DMG but your permissions would be fine inside the DMG.  Just have
>> instructions for them to copy it to the Applications folder or wherever you
>> would like them to run it.
> 
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Robert Livingston]

Thanks for your input.

But I have tried using a DMG of the application and the same problem occurs.




> On Nov 14, 2016, at 7:38 AM, spiffyguy  wrote:
> 
> Apple may change the permission from zip files as you experienced.  Perhaps
> for mac it would be better to make a DMG of your app that people can
> download from Amazon AWS.
> 
> They would get the "Are you sure you want to open..." alert when they opened
> the DMG but your permissions would be fine inside the DMG.  Just have
> instructions for them to copy it to the Applications folder or wherever you
> would like them to run it.

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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Chuck Miller]

There is no resource fork any longer. Long gone the way of Dodo bird

Regards

Chuck

 Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
 Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064   
mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com 
 Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
   Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
  http://www.informed-solutions.com  



> On Nov 14, 2016, at 2:29 AM, Robert Livingston  wrote:
> 
> I have a compiled 4D app
> 
> 1. I zip compress it.
> 
> 2. I uncompress it. It works fine.
> 
> 3. I send the compressed file to an on-line storage (AWS - Amazon Web 
> services)
> 
> 4. I bring back the compressed file.
> 
> 5. I uncompress it. It will not work.
> 
>a. I get a message: Are you sure you want to open the structure file in 
> read only mode?
> 
>b. If you say OK a second message will appear: "toy cannot open this 
> database because the data file (or one of its segments) is locked. 
> 
>c. Then you get an error message.
> 
> 
> 
> It "knows" that the file was downloaded. You get the usual thing about "are 
> you sure you want to open his file downloaded from the Internet". If you say 
> yes that you are sure, you will move forward and run into this problem.
> 
> 
> What is this all about? How do you get around it? If I back-up an app to AWS 
> how can I get it back in a working form?
> 
> 
> 
> The compressed file that you kept on your computer and the compressed file 
> that you send to AWS seem to be the same. But the one you bring back must 
> have some kind of metadata attached to it that cause this problem.
> 
> I did not have this problem a few months ago. I do not know if it is related 
> to Sierra or 4D or what.
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Re: Downloaded 4D app: structure file in read only mode

[Keisuke Miyako]

time for some reading:

https://developer.apple.com/library/content/technotes/tn2206/_index.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/DTS40007919-CH1-TNTAG17

having said that, the concept of marking downloaded zip files is not a new 
thing.

Google "com.apple.quarantine"

> 2016/11/14 16:29、Robert Livingston  のメール：
> I did not have this problem a few months ago. I do not know if it is related 
> to Sierra or 4D or what.



宮古 啓介
セールス・エンジニア

株式会社フォーディー・ジャパン
〒150-0043
東京都渋谷区道玄坂1-10-2 渋谷THビル6F
Tel: 03-6427-8441
Fax: 03-6427-8449

keisuke.miy...@4d.com
www.4D.com/JP

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