Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Yeah, that's what I was thinking about :D
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
I'm really sorry I started this. On Fri, 2011-05-13 at 01:40 -0700, Akshat Kumar wrote: http://www.schubart.net/archives/2004/01/31/worlds-most-expensive-apple-juice Go a tad less and you can get the unfermented kind - though not grape. On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 5:27 AM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: 20$ for a juice? most likely fermented.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On May 10, 2011, at 2:34 AM, hiro wrote: 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! He's talking about wine. — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
He's talking about wine (spoiled grape juice), in a discussion which continues to go further afield with each passing message :) John On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 1:34 AM, hiro 23h...@googlemail.com wrote: 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul w...@authentrus.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: Just look for the origin: the verb is sophistiquer... The usage and the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since sophistiqué (now used non pejoratively) is the past participle of sophistiquer that is definitively pejorative. (Look for sophistiquement too; all this comes from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... This is where semantics encounters the everybody's somebody's fool principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use of the term sophisticated as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the eye of the beholder.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
I tried to clarify that but my reply never appeared. On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 07:47 -0600, Daniel Lyons wrote: On May 10, 2011, at 2:34 AM, hiro wrote: 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! He's talking about wine. — Daniel Lyons
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Tue, 2011-05-10 at 10:34 +0200, hiro wrote: 20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! It's very special juice - made special by the way it's allowed to spoil. You know, fine old oak barrels watched over by a dude who knows how to utter the word tannins with just the right nasality and who knows how to deflect questions about blind tasting without seeming evasive. There is much skill in that; such skill is not cheap. On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul w...@authentrus.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: Just look for the origin: the verb is sophistiquer... The usage and the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since sophistiqué (now used non pejoratively) is the past participle of sophistiquer that is definitively pejorative. (Look for sophistiquement too; all this comes from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... This is where semantics encounters the everybody's somebody's fool principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use of the term sophisticated as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the eye of the beholder.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Heh, I should have noticed. My thoughts were a lot more scary:)
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
20$ for a juice? most likely fermented.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
20$ for a juice? I thought the dollar was already pretty high these days? Seldom do I say this phrase but what the fuck! On 5/9/11, Wes Kussmaul w...@authentrus.com wrote: On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: Just look for the origin: the verb is sophistiquer... The usage and the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since sophistiqué (now used non pejoratively) is the past participle of sophistiquer that is definitively pejorative. (Look for sophistiquement too; all this comes from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... This is where semantics encounters the everybody's somebody's fool principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use of the term sophisticated as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the eye of the beholder.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 10:51:07PM +0200, Mathieu Lonjaret wrote: In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is probably a barbarism, but in french sophistiqué is pejorative: obfuscation, convoluted etc.). Sorry, but it's not. it just means complex, and is not usually employed to make any value judgment. Just look it up in any dictionary. Just look for the origin: the verb is sophistiquer... The usage and the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since sophistiqué (now used non pejoratively) is the past participle of sophistiquer that is definitively pejorative. (Look for sophistiquement too; all this comes from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Mon, 2011-05-09 at 18:54 +0200, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: Just look for the origin: the verb is sophistiquer... The usage and the dictionnaries are inconsistant, since sophistiqué (now used non pejoratively) is the past participle of sophistiquer that is definitively pejorative. (Look for sophistiquement too; all this comes from philosophy where sophiste is not to be taken in good part)... This is where semantics encounters the everybody's somebody's fool principle. I hang out with people who pay $20+++ for a liter of spoiled grape juice. The more they pay the more their peers regard them as being sophisticated. People outside that culture would see that very same use of the term sophisticated as a pejorative. Sophistication is in the eye of the beholder.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 09:54:28AM +, Greg Comeau wrote: Some more food for thought: Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, definition, not smart enough to debug it. --Brian Kernighan With a caveat: when one is really clever, one finds the shortest path to the truth i.e. the simplicity; this means that really clever guys make programs easy to debug because these are the simplest ones doing the job. In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is probably a barbarism, but in french sophistiqué is pejorative: obfuscation, convoluted etc.). -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is probably a barbarism, but in french sophistiqué is pejorative: obfuscation, convoluted etc.). Sorry, but it's not. it just means complex, and is not usually employed to make any value judgment. Just look it up in any dictionary.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 2:27 PM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 09:54:28AM +, Greg Comeau wrote: Some more food for thought: Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, definition, not smart enough to debug it. --Brian Kernighan With a caveat: when one is really clever, one finds the shortest path to the truth i.e. the simplicity; this means that really clever guys make programs easy to debug because these are the simplest ones doing the job. In Brian Kernighan's sentence, s/cleverly/sophisticatedly/ (this is probably a barbarism, but in french sophistiqué is pejorative: obfuscation, convoluted etc.). I think one can usually read things into such phrases, sometimes validly sometime invalidly. I also think it is often easy to disprove such phrases, and so to instead to often just try to find the spirit of the phrase even if it is found to be problematic. For instance, easy to debug could mean the program is so riddled with problems just opening to a random part of it will yield a problem with little effort it could also mean to the contrary that it was written so well that any bugs could be easy to find, but equally on the contrary the program could be such a bleeping mess that even though bug riddled getting through the logic etc could be tormenting at best while at the same time a clean program with few bugs can sometimes make finding the long bug harder because it is the lone last one. In the end there is often no pure bug cause or pure bug resolution mechanism but something in the middle that is contextual. All IMO. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 08:27:53PM +0200, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: (this is probably a barbarism, but in french sophistiqué is pejorative: obfuscation, convoluted etc.). In Italian in 1969, sofisticato meant adulterated. I'm not sure if that is still the case. I think I see what you mean. But as for clever, there are shades of meaning there, there's a clever beyond clever that is what you suggest would discover simplicity. Arguing around subtleties in different languages is sophistic at best. ++L
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thursday, May 05, 2011 09:35:15 PM ron minnich wrote: The reason I asked if errno had looked at webfs was that he can do the standard thing (port some C++/Python Library From Hell to Plan 9) The above described standard thing is more in line with my capabilities. Porting clang is well beyond me though, even at my most optimistic; so I've decided to dedicate time toward looking more closely into porting the netsurf libs for css, html and dom; and mozilla's spidermonkey - as they are further along than webfs/abaco (further along, meaning seemingly more active and current), and I can focus simply on a port, rather than green-field design and development from scratch. In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc stuff; and then slowly bake it closer and closer to something that is more and more 9'ish. Although I think I understand that the prevailing custom here on 9fans is to scorn most software written by and for the unwashed masses - or for the general consumer industry - I'm not so convinced that a reasonable compromise can't exist to fulfill the needs of a class of user who exist a little higher up the stack than, say, low-level systems programmers working on specialist projects within industrial or academic research and development facilities. or do a much more interesting thing, which is look at stuff like abaco and webfs, and learn some lessons, and build something that is faster, better, and cheaper. It's more interesting, yes - but I fear also far, far less likely for me to pull off; no one else has managed to pull it off yet, there's no way I can. (Like I said before: I write backend business logic for web-based applications in java/groovy and perl and shell, along w/ some db and network administration etc. on linux; my skills are humble, but serviceable for what I do for a living not to give you my life story or anything... heheh) In other words, I'm fully cognizant of the fact that I do not have the necessary pre-requisite experience to build a better mouse trap. This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that is familiar, get an ipad. Aww... man. Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I personally think the action is at. I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of cpu'ing from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one example) gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. Or the idea of a home network where I have one cpu/auth server, one file server and a number of super cheap thin-clients providing a modern web interface and shared data for friends, guests and family. I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors and family to run acme and abaco. Cheers
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:20 AM, Skip Tavakkolian skip.tavakkol...@gmail.com wrote: it is (or was) in fgb's contrib. he ported it over back in 2006. cpue% js js help() JavaScript-C 1.5 pre-release 6a 2004-06-09 So it is even better, than I thought :-). G.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thursday, May 05, 2011 10:20:47 PM Skip Tavakkolian wrote: it is (or was) in fgb's contrib. he ported it over back in 2006. cpue% js js help() JavaScript-C 1.5 pre-release 6a 2004-06-09 Right on. One step closer to web domination from a plan 9 platform. (: Thankyou kindly for the heads-up.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: The above described standard thing is more in line with my capabilities. yes, but that is not the issue, or should not be. The issue should be what's the way to get to goal x in an esthetic manner. There's plenty of systems you can take what you know and get something going. If you're not here to learn, then what's the point? In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc stuff; and then slowly bake it closer and closer to something that is more and more 9'ish. I don't agree. Put it this way: if your something doesn't start with webfs then it's probably impossible to make 9-ish. After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I personally think the action is at. The I humbly submit that you may have Missed The Point. I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of cpu'ing from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one example) gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. well, maybe you haven't :-) ron
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thursday, May 05, 2011 09:35:15 PM ron minnich wrote: The reason I asked if errno had looked at webfs was that he can do the standard thing (port some C++/Python Library From Hell to Plan 9) The above described standard thing is more in line with my capabilities. Porting clang is well beyond me though, even at my most optimistic; so I've decided to dedicate time toward looking more closely into porting the netsurf libs for css, html and dom; and mozilla's spidermonkey - as they are further along than webfs/abaco (further along, meaning seemingly more active and current), and I can focus simply on a port, rather than green-field design and development from scratch. In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc stuff; and then slowly bake it closer and closer to something that is more and more 9'ish. Although I think I understand that the prevailing custom here on 9fans is to scorn most software written by and for the unwashed masses - or for the general consumer industry - I'm not so convinced that a reasonable compromise can't exist to fulfill the needs of a class of user who exist a little higher up the stack than, say, low-level systems programmers working on specialist projects within industrial or academic research and development facilities. or do a much more interesting thing, which is look at stuff like abaco and webfs, and learn some lessons, and build something that is faster, better, and cheaper. It's more interesting, yes - but I fear also far, far less likely for me to pull off; no one else has managed to pull it off yet, there's no way I can. (Like I said before: I write backend business logic for web-based applications in java/groovy and perl and shell, along w/ some db and network administration etc. on linux; my skills are humble, but serviceable for what I do for a living not to give you my life story or anything... heheh) In other words, I'm fully cognizant of the fact that I do not have the necessary pre-requisite experience to build a better mouse trap. This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that is familiar, get an ipad. Aww... man. Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I personally think the action is at. I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of cpu'ing from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one example) gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. Or the idea of a home network where I have one cpu/auth server, one file server and a number of super cheap thin-clients providing a modern web interface and shared data for friends, guests and family. I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors and family to run acme and abaco. Cheers
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Look at the 2d tiling of tabs in abaco and tell me it's not pretty neat :-) In fact I way prefer abaco layout to every other browser I've used. ron
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, May 06, 2011 12:08:08 AM ron minnich wrote: After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I personally think the action is at. The I humbly submit that you may have Missed The Point. I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse - what is The Point that you're referring? I don't care what editor or compiler someone uses; but the idea of cpu'ing from a smartphone to run heavy-weight processes (for just one example) gets the geek in me pretty excited with possibility. well, maybe you haven't :-) Now I'm really confused. Speak not in riddles, friend - explain what you mean! (: Please. (:
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 11:45:27PM -0700, errno wrote: I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors and family to run acme and abaco. To cut a long story short, you want your cake and eat it. Unfortunately, 99% of the population prefer to eat a pre-made cake and give up the ownership part. It is hardly Plan 9's fault that those who write poor software for the wrong environment can't be evangelised; as you point out, it doesn't even make sense. But you're stuck, aren't you? As soon as, say, a browser is developed for Plan 9 (assuming that someone could afford the resources), the standards will change and the browser will need major surgery. Who's going to invest in that? Basically, the mover and shakers are precisely the people who don't want Plan 9 (or anything like it) to be a success story. They are winning. ++L
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc stuff; and then slowly bake it closer and closer to something that is more and more 9'ish. i hope that works for you. unfortunately, i think that process will be a lot like making a pig into a supermodel by starting with the lipstick. This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that is familiar, get an ipad. Aww... man. Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? i'm not 100% sure what the op ment. but one way one could read it is that plan 9 is for research, it doesn't need to be usable. i don't think that was the point, and i wouldn't sign up for that intpretation. the way i would read that is that since we value clean ideas and orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable os, but you don't get this for free. it's not that easy to port stuff to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the- oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Just compare ratrace to strace some time. Sometimes, if you get some initial structure right, you can see 100:1 code shrinkage *and* a pretty good result. phrasing! - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On May 6, 2011, at 12:08 AM, ron minnich rminn...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: After a few months of reading and learning and actual hands-on experience, I've found that rio and acme and mk and 8c ,etc., are far less interesting than union directories, per-process namespaces, 9p and intrinsic, ubiquitous distributed computing - that's where I personally think the action is at. The I humbly submit that you may have Missed The Point. The things errmo finds more interesting are indeed where there has been far more experimentation. Acme is great as a programmer's editor but I tend to think that it has reached an evolutionary dead end (how's that as flamebait?:-). Its model of type anywhere doesn't buy you much where the primary mode is reading (as opposed to writing or editing). Not everything requiring a UI fits comfortably in the acme/ rio model. Designing a good UI is just very hard and the challenges there IMHO don't benefit much from plan9's strong points. Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. It would be great if such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno if he wants to do this!
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote: Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. Yes, and then on the other hand, you have web pages. Oh, wait, you weren't talking about postscript documents? :-) It would be great if such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno if he wants to do this! Of course you can create documents using multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures on Plan 9. I do it in troff from time to time. I also do it by writing HTML in a text editor (like Acme), which is also how pretty much all the real web developers (as opposed to dabblers in FrontPage) do it too (except they also use CSS and real programming language backends). The idea that you need a special application built around WEBKIT of all things (I just vomited in my shoes a little) just to write a blog is utterly ridiculous. Now, I'd love to see webkit ported, because I'd love to have a fully-featured web browser on Plan 9. However, call me cynical, but I'm a little concerned that we're seeing yet another repetition of that familiar pattern: New guy comes in, wants to be Plan 9 messiah by porting [gcc/web browser] or writing drivers, makes grandiose plans, everyone points out the flaws in said plans which came about from not understanding Plan 9 yet, new guy disappears. John
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, May 06, 2011 05:59:25 AM erik quanstrom wrote: In other words, I think I can manage to eventually port small ad-hoc stuff; and then slowly bake it closer and closer to something that is more and more 9'ish. i hope that works for you. unfortunately, i think that process will be a lot like making a pig into a supermodel by starting with the lipstick. I'm certain you're right. But it's a concrete and approachable starting place for me, that corresponds well to my _current_ level of experience and ability with plan 9. I expect that after a certain point, I would ditch it and start fresh with the new insights and wisdom gained from the initial attempt. You may disagree with such an approach, but based from what I know of my own self, it's the approach that is most likely to eventually produce some measure of something-more-than-nothing. This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that is familiar, get an ipad. snip the way i would read that is that since we value clean ideas and orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable os, but you don't get this for free. it's not that easy to port stuff to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the- oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser. Acknowledged, and understood.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 06, 2011 at 08:45:24AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote: [...] Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. It would be great if such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno if he wants to do this! Well, there is a layout engine already. Able to combine texte and mathematical writing. It is called TeX... I sometimes wonder what could be obtain using this engine to produce a formatted text to insert/place as boxes on a representation mean: hard copy is one, soft copy (screen) is just another. All in all, that's what MetaPost does for the labels in drawing (can use troff(1) too). -- Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com http://www.kergis.com/ Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On May 6, 2011, at 8:59 AM, John Floren j...@jfloren.net wrote: On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:45 AM, Bakul Shah ba...@bitblocks.com wrote: Well designed documents that use multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures are far easier on one's eyes. Yes, and then on the other hand, you have web pages. Oh, wait, you weren't talking about postscript documents? :-) It would be great if such pages can be viewed, and even better, created on plan9. HTML isn't just for browsers anymore! On the Mac there are some great apps for journal or blog writing etc that use the webkit (not everyone uses MS word or pages). In a way a good webkit can *vitalize* plan9. So more power to errno if he wants to do this! Of course you can create documents using multiple fonts, graphical elements, white space, colors, pictures on Plan 9. I do it in troff from time to time. I also do it by writing HTML in a text editor (like Acme), which is also how pretty much all the real web developers (as opposed to dabblers in FrontPage) do it too (except they also use CSS and real programming language backends). The idea that you need a special application built around WEBKIT of all things (I just vomited in my shoes a little) just to write a blog is utterly ridiculous. Postscript is fine for viewing but if you want editable pages it doesn't cut it. If you want to collaborate with non techies on other platform, troff, raw HTML or TeX is quite limiting. Apps such as journler could be created by one person because of the webkit. They are very easy to use and you don't have to be a real web developer to write. I don't particularly like HTML/XML but it has become ubiquitous as a portable format. At least with a good app I don't have to look at raw HTML (just as programming in a HLL means you don't have to look at the bletcherous x86 code 99.99% of time). Now, I'd love to see webkit ported, because I'd love to have a fully-featured web browser on Plan 9. However, call me cynical, but I'm a little concerned that we're seeing yet another repetition of that familiar pattern: New guy comes in, wants to be Plan 9 messiah by porting [gcc/web browser] or writing drivers, makes grandiose plans, everyone points out the flaws in said plans which came about from not understanding Plan 9 yet, new guy disappears. There is that danger. 9 out of 10 (or may be even 99 out of 100) will disappear. It can get tiring but so what. We don't have to point out the flaws! Let them discover on their own learn the hard way (the only way people learn). I prefer to encourage new people even knowing most of the time we won't benefit. Not to say you are wrong or I am right; just a different point of view to consider!
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
I'm certain you're right. But it's a concrete and approachable starting place for me, that corresponds well to my _current_ level of experience and ability with plan 9. I expect that after a certain point, I would ditch it and start fresh with the new insights and wisdom gained from the initial attempt. You may disagree with such an approach, but based from what I know of my own self, it's the approach that is most likely to eventually produce some measure of something-more-than-nothing. i don't disagree with that approach, i was just pointing out one its fundamental properties. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 8:59 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? i'm not 100% sure what the op ment. but one way one could read it is that plan 9 is for research, it doesn't need to be usable. i don't think that was the point, and i wouldn't sign up for that intpretation. the way i would read that is that since we value clean ideas and orthogonal design more than polish, you get a clean and malleable os, but you don't get this for free. it's not that easy to port stuff to plan 9, and it's hard to get folks interested in certain boil-the- oceans projects like building a full html 5 web browser. Let's say for argument's sake that errno pulls this off. Let's say he manages to get something like FireFox working on Plan 9. Let's say that the executable is fully functional (don't know if that's possible but let's assume it is). How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 handle it (whatever that means)? How does it change Plan 9's future? What I'm getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS, so what would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser available for it? -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? If I can have plan9 as my daily desktop machine I'll be using a lot more of it, which means there'll be a few things that will annoy me and a few things that I can fix. I'll be able to dedicate more of my 'free time' towards plan9 and maybe write more programs for it, especially with an easier-to-write language like Go available. With more code written in plan9 I'd have more reason to have a server or two running it in the data centre, which may enable me to share some resources with other people running plan9. All of the above isn't wishful thinking, it actually happened several times in the past decade at different locations. plan9.ucalgary.ca was a great place to share resources for canadians and at one point ran the biggest plan9 cpu server (8-single-core cpus in 2003). Lots of people had free accounts on it to try out stuff. Elsewhere, a server in Japan had amassed the largest collection of 9fans, similarly, other 9grid machines popped up in many places in Europe and the US. Unfortunately there are never enough people sticking with plan9 long enough. Eventually i couldn't stick with it either. I stopped actively coding for plan9 when it stopped being my default desktop in 2006-7. Now if I need something done in Plan9 there are quite a few capable replacements like 9vx and p9p, but I would go back to running native plan9 if I could because it's a much calmer place to work. Ironically, I wish to go back to plan9 because the internet is too distracting, yet I can't do it because there's no proper web browser for it :) cheers: andrey
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Quick attempt at damage control, hope it's not too late: On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: [...] errno pulls this off. [...] something like FireFox working on Plan 9. Let's say that the executable is fully functional People may take it you literally mean: Firefox-on-Plan-9. nonono I tried real hard to avoid that misunderstanding. And, fully functional := css 2.1/3, ecmascript 3rd/5th (w/ dom), html 4.1/5, ssl/tls On Sunday, May 01, 2011 09:09:06 PM errno wrote: (and, forget about the browser part of the web for now - I think web _browsers_ suck worse than the web itself - I'm just concerned with the web _engine_ for now) On Sunday, May 01, 2011 06:42:12 PM errno wrote: With regards to web browsers - the over-generalized kitchen-sync applications that supply the cookie management and password storing, and bookmarks, and cert management, and home pages, and back/forward buttons and all that shtuff - a decent web engine library would facilitate any number and any manner of unique and specialized front-ends. The engine is the important part, the actual front-ends are expected to just... materialize. On Friday, April 29, 2011 09:05:39 PM errno wrote: (by web experience, I'm not talking about porting firefox and flash to Plan 9 - I'm talking about native or ported libraries for what wikipedia refers to as a web browser engine or layout engine; and by fully functional, I'm talking about something that can score at least an 80% or so on the acid2 test.)
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 handle it (whatever that means)? How does it change Plan 9's future? What I'm getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS, so what would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser available for it? A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of use-cases currently out of reach: When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other than data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, personal learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the freedom to enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, and reducing overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in maintenance time/effort. On Sunday, May 01, 2011 09:09:06 PM errno wrote: The idea is to remove the middle-man. On Friday, May 06, 2011 12:08:04 AM errno wrote: Do you not think it's possible or worthwhile to have a great(er) desktop (or consumer-oriented embedded device) experience built atop Plan 9? Or the idea of a home network where I have one cpu/auth server, one file server and a number of super cheap thin-clients providing a modern web interface and shared data for friends, guests and family. I'm tired of maintaining everyone's computers in my house on an ad-hoc basis; and I think I could deploy a higher performing, more maintainable, but overall cheaper network with Plan 9. But I can hardly expect visitors and family to run acme and abaco.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:18 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: Quick attempt at damage control, hope it's not too late: On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: [...] errno pulls this off. [...] something like FireFox working on Plan 9. Let's say that the executable is fully functional People may take it you literally mean: Firefox-on-Plan-9. nonono I tried real hard to avoid that misunderstanding. Yes, sorry about that. I did not mean to imply it literally, just took it to the next step so to speak -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Friday, May 06, 2011 03:32:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: How does this change things literally, conceptually and philosophically? Consider this question across the board, for instance, can Plan 9 handle it (whatever that means)? How does it change Plan 9's future? What I'm getting at is that I'm hearing things about it being a research OS, so what would it mean for a research OS to have a full fledged browser available for it? A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of use-cases currently out of reach: When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other than data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, personal learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the freedom to enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, and reducing overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in maintenance time/effort. ... How and/or why do you feel it would reduce the hardware requirements of friends and family? And especially so versus linux? -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of use-cases currently out of reach: Speaking in platitudes doesn't make a case. How specifically would this tie in to 9p? How specifically does it fit into namespaces? Show us some code fragments. Write some simple file servers to stub out this veneer you describe. In the process of doing this you will learn a lot about plan 9. And as a side effect, you will come to understand why nobody else has gone down this road.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, May 06, 2011 04:56:26 PM Comeau At9Fans wrote: On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: When friends and family can comfortably use it, for activities other than data-archival, then I can deploy it for uses beyond my own limited, personal learning projects. The benefit I intend to receive for this is the freedom to enjoy Plan 9 more often, while reducing linux dependency, and reducing overall costs: both in hardware requirements, and in maintenance time/effort. How and/or why do you feel it would reduce the hardware requirements of friends and family? And especially so versus linux? The same way a linux terminal server w/ linux thin-clients would reduce hardware requirements. So why not just use a linux terminal server then? Because linux lacks the inherent distributed qualities of Plan 9.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, May 06, 2011 05:12:02 PM Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: A veneer of html + css + javascript over the intrinsically distributed foundations of Plan 9, would provide the bridge for an entire class of use-cases currently out of reach: Speaking in platitudes doesn't make a case. How specifically would this tie in to 9p? How specifically does it fit into namespaces? Huh? ... the same way webfs does? 9p and namespaces is exactly what allows me to transparently access the cpu/auth/file server from my thin client from which to springboard my operating environment from any location, and how I'm able to the processor on the cpu server, and how I'm able to arrange multiple discrete environments from ad-hoc resources. That shit's intrinsic and seamless to the plan 9 experience; I don't understand how it's not immediately obvious how 9p and namespaces tie in and fit into the whole idea. Right? I hope I'm not still missing The Point, 'cuz that would be really embarrassing by this juncture. :) Show us some code fragments. Write some simple file servers to stub out this veneer you describe. In the process of doing this you will learn a lot about plan 9. And as a side effect, you will come to understand why nobody else has gone down this road. I have no disagreement. I don't mind responding as long as people are directing comments and questions at me though; should I announce that I hereby extract myself from any further discussion? I don't mind doing that either, if it means reducing annoyance levels from the list members. I don't want make a continued annoyance of myself; it's true that I've got plenty to cognate and work on. Thankyou
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In article 201104292105.39780.er...@cox.net, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:21:12 AM Jacob Todd wrote: Seeing that plan 9 doesn't have a c++ compiler, i doubt it will ever be ported. But APE has c++ (old version of gcc though). That is incorrect, it was attempted but ran into issues. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In article 9ad5871bf83f37b7e7ed19169d389...@quintile.net, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: There is cfront c++ but this is so old it would probably not be worth getting it to work - templates never worked in ATT cfront. And not modern C++ in any event at this point even if so... The exception to this the HP cfront implementation which they might release if hassled. As I recall, HP cfront was one in the same (adding the implementation of exception handling to cfront mostly). They did do further work on (modern) templates but it was to an inhouse compiler. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In article 129e2e01-3583-4e27-b520-252a956f5...@corpus-callosum.com, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote: On Apr 29, 2011, at 4:54 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: at any rate, `code removed is code debugged' is very true, but that's not something easily put on CV or boasted to friends. An alternative version, `deleted code is debugged code', has been used very s= uccessfully by myself and other colleagues. I first heard the term on a very= large VAX/VMS project in 1992 where it succeed in making its way into frequ= ent use. Some more food for thought: Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, definition, not smart enough to debug it. --Brian Kernighan We observe simply that a program usually has to be read several times in the process of getting it debugged. The harder it is for people to grasp the intent of any given section, the longer it will be before the program becomes operational. -- Kernighan and Plauger -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
errno, you seem to have an interesting logic flow on some of the pros and cons you'd be up against. I have two probably naive questions (for anybody): * Assuming errno gets his wish, is Plan 9 as a system up to the task? (Please no flames.) * I don't know much about it, but I know a number of people who still use dumb terminals and such and swear by lynx. I know this is not what errno is seeking, and it could even end up being a distraction to such a goal, but don't know what can be built atop it, so this could equally be an insane suggestion to look into it. -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In article 86y62r9xno.fsf@cmarib.ramside, smi...@zenzebra.mv.com wrote: Anthony Sorace a...@9srv.net writes: because it's a huge amount of work. there's a whole pile of standards and pseudo-standards to deal with, the set is ever-growing, the components are ever-growing, and there isn't really a good definition of correct. Perhaps there's a Plan 9 way to approach the problem which might involve a less-huge amount of work. Suppose the functionality of each component of the web browser architecture were specified with a domain-specific language (DSL). Take, for example, CSS. Translate the English human-readable CSS standards into a CSS DSL. Then, write a compiler to compile the constraints specified in the CSS DSL into C code that can be compiled with 8c. Then, when the standard is updated, when a special case needs to be added, or when a bug is found, that info would be added to the CSS specification written in the CSS DSL. Recompile to C, compile to binary, and you're up to date. That way, the whole specification doesn't need to be implemented directly in $language, and updates/modifications don't require additional, tedious, coding. This approach would require a DSL to be created for each of the components of the architecture: HTML, CSS, script, DOM; and a compiler would need to be written to convert each DSL into C. Now, here's the question: Would an apprach using specifications in domain-specific languages be easier or harder than porting an existing engine to 9? I think the less huge characterization probably leaves this as an unknown with both being enough of a chore that either will no doubt challenging and challenging in their own rights. Personally I don't know know enough about the web to assess it myself though I do have observations I'll leave at a cursory level that there does not seem to be a simple solution. BTW, why is the above a Plan 9 specific approach? -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
* I don't know much about it, but I know a number of people who still use dumb terminals and such and swear by lynx. I know this is not what errno is seeking, and it could even end up being a distraction to such a goal, but don't know what can be built atop it, so this could equally be an insane suggestion to look into it. /n/sources/contrib/fgb/tar/lynx2-8-7.tgz - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
perhaps we should revisit the links port. i see they have a 2.3pre2 version released couple of weeks ago so it's not stale: http://links.twibright.com/download/ that would be minimal effort compared to everything else.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:54 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.comwrote: perhaps we should revisit the links port. i see they have a 2.3pre2 version released couple of weeks ago so it's not stale: http://links.twibright.com/download/ that would be minimal effort compared to everything else. abaco is much more functional and stable than the (actual) links port never was, we used it for a while, but abaco has completely replaced links now. The binary is much smaller too and it supports https with factotum, uses webfs, etc. I think it only really needs CSS and javascript to be functional enough (and plugins, but that is another matter). Any browser anyone writes/ports needs javascript and that is (mostly) independant of anything else and needed, so putting some effort there is probably good whatever the path taken. Spidermonkey javascript implementation is in C and highly doable though very very boring. With that, CSS and some small work (like chaging the fonts for input forms) abaco could be made into a simple, powerful well integrated (pre html 5, but that is another different level of complexity) browser for Plan 9. This are my two cents, but I don't have time for that and probably won't, so I´ll shut up now :-). G.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Gorka Guardiola pau...@gmail.com wrote: Any browser anyone writes/ports needs javascript and that is (mostly) independant of anything else and needed, so putting some effort there is probably good whatever the path taken. Spidermonkey javascript implementation is in C and highly doable though very very boring. I remember there was a Spidermonkey port somewhere in contrib. iru
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, May 05, 2011 at 12:33:47PM +, Greg Comeau wrote: * I don't know much about it, but I know a number of people who still use dumb terminals and such and swear by lynx. Links was ported to Plan 9 (I'm sure copies of it can be found). The problem here would be tracking developments, considering the frequency of changes and bug fixes, given the much smaller pool of developers that Plan 9 has access to. ++L
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
The reason I asked if errno had looked at webfs was that he can do the standard thing (port some C++/Python Library From Hell to Plan 9) or do a much more interesting thing, which is look at stuff like abaco and webfs, and learn some lessons, and build something that is faster, better, and cheaper. This is a research OS, not a Windows replacement. There's a reason to use it. You want a great desktop experience that is familiar, get an ipad. Just compare ratrace to strace some time. Sometimes, if you get some initial structure right, you can see 100:1 code shrinkage *and* a pretty good result. I've never heard anyone say too forcefully that they think the various web clients have got the structure right. It's hard to believe it's right given their size, complexity, and bugginess. ron
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
it is (or was) in fgb's contrib. he ported it over back in 2006. cpue% js js help() JavaScript-C 1.5 pre-release 6a 2004-06-09 -Skip On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Iruatã Souza iru.mu...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Gorka Guardiola pau...@gmail.com wrote: Any browser anyone writes/ports needs javascript and that is (mostly) independant of anything else and needed, so putting some effort there is probably good whatever the path taken. Spidermonkey javascript implementation is in C and highly doable though very very boring. I remember there was a Spidermonkey port somewhere in contrib. iru
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On 04/29/11 00:21, Brian L. Stuart wrote: Ron wrote: andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: This is great! it is, isn't it? 6 seconds kernel compile, 15 seconds turnaround time when developing anything in the kernel (with PXE boot). beat that, modern operating systems :) yes, I had to help config and build a linux kernel yesterday; every time I see it I just want to claw my eyes out. And it gets worse every month ... Life is too short to configure and compile Linux and GNU software. And they people (the developers, distributions as well as users), however, are doing it since 1991 :P -- Balwinder S bdheeman Dheeman (http://werc.homelinux.net/contact/)
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
In article banlktinveropxqtob3objhywtngu1xq...@mail.gmail.com, Jacob Todd jaketodd...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 29, 2011 6:21 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:18:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure Afaik, google has been distributing picasa with wine for years, it doesn't act like an intermediate solution, it seems told be their solution. Icebergs are justified when used as a temporary stop-gap until a native solution is devised and implemented. Thus, a webkit environment (AWE) seems like a pretty decent compromise until Plan 9 is finally able to treat the wild wild web like a first-class citizen. Seeing that plan 9 doesn't have a c++ compiler, i doubt it will ever be ported. Let's assume that's so and will always be so. Here, we're always switching between mostly MacOS and Windows (used to be LINUX and Windows). It's annoying, and yes it often means icebergs, but we find we'd rather have/take them than nothing, even in the face of it being imperfect or less optimal compromises. And often, it's even the thing that makes sense, since, it might just mean morphing an iceberg (or whatever it is) to another iceberg (or whatever it is). -- Greg Comeau / 4.3.10.1 with C++0xisms now in beta! Comeau C/C++ ONLINE == http://www.comeaucomputing.com/tryitout World Class Compilers: Breathtaking C++, Amazing C99, Fabulous C90. Comeau C/C++ with Dinkumware's Libraries... Have you tried it?
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Life is too short to configure and compile Linux and GNU software. And they people (the developers, distributions as well as users), however, are doing it since 1991 :P so in conclusion, perhaps one of the following is true - linux has gotten slowly worse over the years, - some people don't value their time, - not everyone appreciates that there are alternatives. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
why is everyone on about native web? what does that even mean? http://diveintomark.org/archives/2011/04/15/nativity-scene (sorry, couldn't resist!) salman On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 3:29 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: Running a plan 9 hosted inferno is essentially another take on the vnc or linuxemu workarounds. It won't provide the same freedoms and benefits of a native library/engine/framework.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
why is everyone on about native web? what does that even mean? good questions. i liked that reference, which i hadn't seen before.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Monday, May 02, 2011 03:38:53 AM Salman Aljammaz wrote: why is everyone on about native web? what does that even mean? http://diveintomark.org/archives/2011/04/15/nativity-scene (sorry, couldn't resist!) (: It occurs to me that the existence of webfs and abaco, etc. are indicators that the idea of a native web engine/library isn't entirely without merit. Either that... or the people involved in those other attempts finally realized that firefox over vnc or linuxemu, and charon over inferno, are far superior solutions in every conceivable way. (: Web sites and HTML5 run best when they run natively, on a browser optimized for the operating system on your device. A more generalized form of the above statement would not be devoid of fact.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On May 2, 2011, at 9:54 AM, Jack Norton wrote: I'd claim that most sites these days lend well to being translated as NNTP news feeds. Most sites are people 'posting' crap and thoughts on said crap at regular intervals. maybe by number, but that's not really a useful metric. this model would do nothing to help me deal with any of the financial institutions i have to deal with, for example. moreover, i'd say that the sites that are most amenable to this sort of representation are the ones already reasonably handled by abaco or charon. someone remind me what this has to do with the 9atom kernel? PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Frankly I'd be more interested in a video player (just a few common codecs that's all) than a modern web browser. that's possibly feasible.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Monday 02 of May 2011 18:29:13 Charles Forsyth wrote: it's hard to see how a fast Javascript implementation, (...) it's hard to see how a fast Javascript implementation, for example, is especially dependent on the operating system on which it runs (...) ![PESSIMISTIC VIEW[ that used to be the case, but much not anymore. some popular websites are JS- heavy, and the browser has to do heavy lifting. various speedups were implemented by popular browsers -- and are practically necessary for use of those sites. one popular speedup is compilation of JS to native code. this depends to a good deal on paging for protection (and perhaps GC, not sure). this requires some co-operation with the OS. another point of dependence (read: infinite surface of dependence) is the interaction of JS and DOM with OS-specific input model. today not only hyperlinks and comboboxes are widgets, but a lot of seemingly plain areas are made active, both on click and on mere hover, (for good reasons and with good use). also the output model: (re-)drawing screen content. both good old 2D APIs and (for IE, at least, but will in near future for others) interacting with GPU for access to accelerated drawing primitives, working neatly with composition and avoiding costly cascades of copying image data around system memory and to video memory. yet another point, probably best illustrated with FF: some plugins contribute functionality via JS code. supporting such plugins also should have some platform-specific dependencies. something having little to do with JS itself, but important for website rendering: font support. the second worst problem in computing, IMHO. some websites require pixel- or even sub(!)-pixel accuracy, lest they end up looking all messy and/or end up with overlapping widgets. yes, it runs kinda contrary to the purpose of HTML and CSS. another fine technical decision by technically unqualified managerial personnel, sigh. last but not least, google's NaCl (a.k.a. Native Client) which uses certain properties aspects of memory protection for secure execution of binary code from foreign sources (yeah, i know we've been there; but this one oughta work, as it depends on silicon, not digital signatures from one gatekeeper company). it again depends on the OS to a degree for running the code. i believe this is an interesting thing, and possibly a viable alternative to including explicit support for countless alternative scripting languages directly into browsers. to wrap it up: i don't believe in high-performance cross-platform browsers. they either need helluva lots of maintenance chasing the evolving platforms, or not perform all that well. ]] -- dexen deVries ``One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means.''
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sunday 01 of May 2011 00:45:48 Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: Perhaps there's a Plan 9 way to approach the problem which might involve a less-huge amount of work. There is nothing Plan 9 about this. When a piece of code gets so large as to be impossible to understand, it's time to throw it out and start over. Where we as engineers fail is in not making the case that it is cheaper for the corporate behemoth to re-write rather than extend, embrace, and bloat. I can't get started on this right now ... dare we say, ``Greenspun's Tenth Rule''? :D -- dexen deVries ``One can't proceed from the informal to the formal by formal means.''
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Starting Goal: a modern, standards compliant web engine library for Plan 9 As others have pointed out that's pretty hard to define, but in the current web world, you can cover a surprisingly large fraction of sites if you have good JavaScript and CSS support. Running Java in the browser isn't as trendy as it once was, so the big missing piece would be Flash, which of course, is the root of all evil. Options: * write from scratch * port existing codebase There's one other possibility that I've thought about. Inferno's browser charon is more capable than it might appear. It has some degree of JavaScript support. The main thing I've noticed when trying to use it for some day-to-day browsing is that it lacks CSS and could use some work on performance. I suspect that adding CSS to charon and doing some performance work on it would be easier than either of those two options. BLS
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
There's one other possibility that I've thought about. Inferno's browser charon is more capable than it might appear. It has some degree of JavaScript support. The main thing I've noticed when trying to use it for some day-to-day browsing is that it lacks CSS and could use some work on performance. I suspect that adding CSS to charon and doing some performance work on it would be easier than either of those two options. in the little i've looked at css, the programming model seemed relatively clean and straightforward. unfortuntely, most all css seems to be written as part of a global obfuscated css programming contest. clearly there are no winners. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sunday, May 01, 2011 04:56:40 PM blstu...@bellsouth.net wrote: Starting Goal: a modern, standards compliant web engine library for Plan 9 As others have pointed out that's pretty hard to define, Agreed, I did try to make an attempt at a modicum of a definition to work from, but it was in an earlier post: (by web experience, I'm not talking about porting firefox and flash to Plan 9 - I'm talking about native or ported libraries for what wikipedia refers to as a web browser engine or layout engine; and by fully functional, I'm talking about something that can score at least an 80% or so on the acid2 test.) web browser engine (html, css, dom ecmascript) but in the current web world, you can cover a surprisingly large fraction of sites if you have good JavaScript and CSS support. Definitely: css 2.1 (or 3), ecmascript 3rd (or 5th) w/ dom support, html 4.1 (or 5) That's the entire client side of the web. (well, ssl is pretty crucial...) Digression: --- With regards to web browsers - the over-generalized kitchen-sync applications that supply the cookie management and password storing, and bookmarks, and cert management, and home pages, and back/forward buttons and all that shtuff - a decent web engine library would facilitate any number and any manner of unique and specialized front-ends. The engine is the important part, the actual front-ends are expected to just... materialize. Interesting-ish web browsers: luakit: http://luakit.org/projects/luakit/ vimprobable: http://vimprobable.org/ Personally though, I'm tired of the web browser and would like to see more of a web shell. A web shell would look like a command shell, have zero interface or control widgets, and would consist entirely of the html canvas. Ctrl-c exits the html canvas and throws you back into the web command shell. Type a url, hit enter - the command shell is replaced with the html canvas again. No back/forward/home buttons, no menus or url bars, or search bars, etc., no config screens - just like an rc shell. --- Running Java in the browser isn't as trendy as it once was, so the big missing piece would be Flash, which of course, is the root of all evil. In my mind, for whatever little that's worth, I think flash (and java) could both be reasonably ditched entirely. Under the naive hope that the web has already moved away from embedding java, and flash is next to go (once html 5 is generally ubiquitous). Options: * write from scratch * port existing codebase There's one other possibility that I've thought about. Inferno's browser charon is more capable than it might appear. It has some degree of JavaScript support. The main thing I've noticed when trying to use it for some day-to-day browsing is that it lacks CSS and could use some work on performance. I suspect that adding CSS to charon and doing some performance work on it would be easier than either of those two options. I suspect netsurf might actually be better to work from than charon, if only because netsurf is already written c rather than limbo, and has already been ported to many platforms. Another idea, is rather than port an entire existing web engine stack (webkit) - is to just cherry pick some of the separate pieces - spidermonkey and libcss (both written in c), for instance - port them over individually then bake them into abaco or a webfs-ng or something.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
I suspect netsurf might actually be better to work from than charon, if only because netsurf is already written c rather than limbo, and has already been ported to many platforms. unless i've completely misunderstood, brian is suggesting to run charon in plan 9-hosted inferno. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sunday, May 01, 2011 06:44:42 PM erik quanstrom wrote: I suspect netsurf might actually be better to work from than charon, if only because netsurf is already written c rather than limbo, and has already been ported to many platforms. unless i've completely misunderstood, brian is suggesting to run charon in plan 9-hosted inferno. Ah, I believe you're right; thanks for the correction. I'll risk venturing an opinion on that approach: Running a plan 9 hosted inferno is essentially another take on the vnc or linuxemu workarounds. It won't provide the same freedoms and benefits of a native library/engine/framework.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
I'll risk venturing an opinion on that approach: Running a plan 9 hosted inferno is essentially another take on the vnc or linuxemu workarounds. It won't provide the same freedoms and benefits of a native library/engine/framework. what freedoms are those? - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sunday, May 01, 2011 07:38:43 PM erik quanstrom wrote: I'll risk venturing an opinion on that approach: Running a plan 9 hosted inferno is essentially another take on the vnc or linuxemu workarounds. It won't provide the same freedoms and benefits of a native library/engine/framework. what freedoms are those? The freedom _from_ an extra, extraneous, alien environment. [1] The freedom _for_ building a variety of native front-ends. The freedom _for_ integrating with existing native libraries. Perhaps freedoms and benefits are synonymous in this context, and thus redundant. [1] yes - I think it's strictly accurate to consider inferno as being alien and extraneous to plan 9.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
The freedom _from_ an extra, extraneous, alien environment. [1] but it's a web browser. it's already an alien environment. :-) The freedom _for_ building a variety of native front-ends. The freedom _for_ integrating with existing native libraries. what's the advantage here? i don't want to build a front-end to a web browser, and i don't really care if it links against libc or whatever. hosted inferno is a very good simulation of running directly on the host os. - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:11 PM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: etc. Just wondering if you have looked at webfs. ron
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Just to add some more confusion to the mix, there was a port of an early charon release from limbo to c, called 'i' - the single letter. This worked to the point of working like a buggy abaco (perhaps I am unfair but that is what it feels like), Its on sources (in contrib/extra I think). I'am not suggesting it should be used as a starting point but its an interesting example to look at. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 11:26:03 PM Anthony Sorace wrote: On Apr 30, 2011, at 12:05 AM, errno wrote: But APE has c++ (old version of gcc though). APE has no c++. there is a very old version of gcc floating around on sources that can, with some effort, sometimes be made to compile things. Ah, ok - thanks for the correction. And thanks for the friendly response in general, appreciated. So, shaking this out just a bit further: (anyone reading, please just ignore this if you find it too long, and/or too annoying, and/or too naive - or whatever - I'd rather hear crickets chirping than hecklers carping - thanks) Starting Goal: a modern, standards compliant web engine library for Plan 9 Options: * write from scratch * port existing codebase Option Considerations: * writing from scratch is simply too momentous a task: because it's a huge amount of work. there's a whole pile of standards and pseudo-standards to deal with, the set is ever-growing, the components are ever-growing, and there isn't really a good definition of 'correct'. it's all just a hideous mess. + thus, porting from an existing codebase is likely the more realistic option Porting Options: * gecko * webkit Porting Option Considerations: * of the port options, gecko and webkit are the most well-developed, active, complete candidates. + the choice between gecko or webkit might be arguable, but webkit may be a more desirable choice as it has a more modular design with better separation of concerns and a cleaner api, thus webkit will be targeted. New Goal: in accordance to the above enumerated considerations, the goal is to port webkit to plan 9, for the purpose of facilitating a modern, standards compliant web framework library for Plan 9 WebKit Considerations: * webkit is built primarily with c++ * webkit has a moderate number of build dependencies and app dependencies * plan 9 currently lacks a reliably functional, modern, native c++ compiler, so the goal cannot be accomplished without some means of c++ support in plan 9 C++ Compiler Options: * gcc * llvm/clang C++ Compiler Considerations: * somewhat similar to the gecko vs. webkit decision, the choice between gcc or clang may also be arguable New Prerequisite Goal: port a c++ compiler and std libs to plan 9 Ok, so really - in order to have any real chance of seeing a satisfactory, native/near-native web experience on plan 9, an existing codebase must be ported - and that codebase is written in c++, so: For the purpose of satisfying stated goal, a c++ compiler must first be ported to plan 9. Regardless, it is predicted that porting a c++ compiler to plan 9, _then_ porting webkit to plan 9, is _still_ less work than writing a brand new, complete, standards-compliant web browser engine from scratch. The question then becomes: which c++ compiler should be targeted, gcc or llvm/clang? On an entirely subjective/relative scale of 1 to 5, how difficult is it to port gcc or clang to plan 9? Is this effectively impossible without a dedicated and focused team of developers? Is anyone already doing this? Due to the requirements, it appears that incorporating the web as a 1st-class-platform in plan 9 is effectively unapproachable: Porting a c++ toolchain isn't likely going to happen, and the skillsets and resources necessary to build a solution from scratch presents far too high a bar too manage. Anyhow, thanks for letting me walk myself through the scenario. It's hard to spend any time working with and reading about plan 9 without thinking in terms of how much better a great many things would be if said things had a native plan 9 implementation. The Web on Plan 9 seems like Web++ to me. But, I'm also coming from the simple-minded perspective of a basic admin and consumer-grade enduser - someone who likes the idea of setting up a distributed plan 9 network in my house for guests, friends and family. A plan 9 terminal would be useless to such people at the current time though - which kinda deflates my balloon a bit, ah well... so it goes.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
First I assume you have used abaco - it is incomplete but its the best plan9 has at present - without using linuxemu. There is cfront c++ but this is so old it would probably not be worth getting it to work - templates never worked in ATT cfront. The exception to this the HP cfront implementation which they might release if hassled. If you are saying that you are willing to take this on (getting a modern native plan9 web browser running) I may be able to help in some areas (NDAs annotingly prevent me discussing it here). One idea I was considering for several years was trying to get Dillo running as a fairly compliant browser, initially under an X11 server but later you might be able to merge the framebuffer backend to dillo (via a library I cannot remember) and replace it with a library which talks /dev/draw rather than linux framebuffer. just some random thoughts. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Saturday, April 30, 2011 01:25:53 AM Steve Simon wrote: First I assume you have used abaco - it is incomplete but its the best plan9 has at present - without using linuxemu. I appreciate abaco for what it is, but unfortunately it's not something I can expect to satisfy most users' activities on the web. I still haven't tried a browser through linuxemu though... maybe that'll end up being sufficient. If you are saying that you are willing to take this on (getting a modern native plan9 web browser running) I may be able to help in some areas Excellent - I'm definitely willing to see how far I can get. My little 9 network is currently in the midst of being re-deployed (was going to play around with 9front); when I get it back online (so I have an instance to work from), I'll send you an email - I could definitely use the advice/pointers of someone more experienced. Thanks! One idea I was considering for several years was trying to get Dillo running as a fairly compliant browser, initially under an X11 server but later you might be able to merge the framebuffer backend to dillo (via a library I cannot remember) and replace it with a library which talks /dev/draw rather than linux framebuffer. Interesting... I did spend some time seeking out other, possible more simple, alternatives, dillo for instance - but I came to the spoiled-minded conclusion that to do it right - so that it's not just another kind-of basically working for a limited subset of use-cases situation - that it really should use a current and active engine such as webkit (preferable) or gecko. just some random thoughts. Thankyou! Cheers
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On 30 Apr 2011, at 9:16 am, errno wrote: So, shaking this out just a bit further: (anyone reading, please just ignore this if you find it too long, and/or too annoying, and/or too naive - or whatever - I'd rather hear crickets chirping than hecklers carping - thanks) I hope you won't find this post heckling, although I will admit I find the temptation to troll almost irresistible when web technology is involved. Porting Options: * gecko Gecko had a reputation for really bad code some years ago. I don't think this has improved, I think it's got worse considering the devs would rather write long blog posts whining about exactly how hard it is to integrate about:blank into Firefox 4 when they could have it store a zero-length (or a blank html) page internally and display that with the standard renderer. Also, if it's any guide to gecko performance, Firefox is !%@%#@ slow! Firefox 3 manages to make my dual-core 1.8GHz 2GB netbook seem horribly outdated where Opera runs just fine. I'm not even thinking about touching Firefox 4. * webkit I don't know what the current status is, but it seems to go through phases of being very unstable. That said, I'm actually half-wishing I had a stable webkit browser in Linux. Still, it's C++ and I can only add to what you've heard regarding the difficulties of porting a C++ development environment. ;) Possibly another option: * netsurf I'm reliably informed this is making very good progress. It also _may_ be possible to build it with a compiler other than gcc. They recommend gcc now, but not too long ago they supported a range of compilers. It certainly builds and runs on a much wider range of systems than either Gecko or Webkit, both of which are tied to one toolkit. I think I'd better stop now, before I go into a rant about that one toolkit.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
errno er...@cox.net writes: Due to the requirements, it appears that incorporating the web as a 1st-class-platform in plan 9 is effectively unapproachable: You forgot to backtrack to your webkit/gecko choicepoint and follow down the gecko goal tree. -- +---+ |E-Mail: smi...@zenzebra.mv.com PGP key ID: BC549F8B| |Fingerprint: 9329 DB4A 30F5 6EDA D2BA 3489 DAB7 555A BC54 9F8B| +---+
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Anthony Sorace a...@9srv.net writes: because it's a huge amount of work. there's a whole pile of standards and pseudo-standards to deal with, the set is ever-growing, the components are ever-growing, and there isn't really a good definition of correct. Perhaps there's a Plan 9 way to approach the problem which might involve a less-huge amount of work. Suppose the functionality of each component of the web browser architecture were specified with a domain-specific language (DSL). Take, for example, CSS. Translate the English human-readable CSS standards into a CSS DSL. Then, write a compiler to compile the constraints specified in the CSS DSL into C code that can be compiled with 8c. Then, when the standard is updated, when a special case needs to be added, or when a bug is found, that info would be added to the CSS specification written in the CSS DSL. Recompile to C, compile to binary, and you're up to date. That way, the whole specification doesn't need to be implemented directly in $language, and updates/modifications don't require additional, tedious, coding. This approach would require a DSL to be created for each of the components of the architecture: HTML, CSS, script, DOM; and a compiler would need to be written to convert each DSL into C. Now, here's the question: Would an apprach using specifications in domain-specific languages be easier or harder than porting an existing engine to 9? -- +---+ |E-Mail: smi...@zenzebra.mv.com PGP key ID: BC549F8B| |Fingerprint: 9329 DB4A 30F5 6EDA D2BA 3489 DAB7 555A BC54 9F8B| +---+
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Perhaps there's a Plan 9 way to approach the problem which might involve a less-huge amount of work. There is nothing Plan 9 about this. When a piece of code gets so large as to be impossible to understand, it's time to throw it out and start over. Where we as engineers fail is in not making the case that it is cheaper for the corporate behemoth to re-write rather than extend, embrace, and bloat. I can't get started on this right now ...
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Saturday, April 30, 2011 03:21:09 PM smi...@zenzebra.mv.com wrote: errno er...@cox.net writes: Due to the requirements, it appears that incorporating the web as a 1st-class-platform in plan 9 is effectively unapproachable: You forgot to backtrack to your webkit/gecko choicepoint and follow down the gecko goal tree. Gecko is also written primarily in c++, which means porting a c++ compiler to plan 9 would still remain a prerequisite for that path also. (I haven't done a valid evaluation of gecko vs. webkit; I've built and poked around webkit, but haven't done the same for gecko. My c skills are rather humble, but my c++ skills are entirely non-existant... so I'm unable to perform a valid evaluation of the two anyhow) On Saturday, April 30, 2011 05:18:03 AM Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: Possibly another option: * netsurf Very cool, that's another potential port candidate that I wasn't aware of - and it's written in c, which lowers the bar quite a bit. I'll definitely take a closer look at netsurf next weekend, maybe it's a more realistic target. Thanks!
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
Gecko is also written primarily in c++, which means porting a c++ compiler to plan 9 would still remain a prerequisite for that path also. No, it's written in a combination of g++-version_of_the_week and whatever Visual Studio calls C++ for its current release. You cannot port that shit. Nor should you. --lyndon
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Saturday, April 30, 2011 04:33:23 PM Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: Gecko is also written primarily in c++, which means porting a c++ compiler to plan 9 would still remain a prerequisite for that path also. No, it's written in a combination of g++-version_of_the_week and whatever Visual Studio calls C++ for its current release. You cannot port that shit. Nor should you. Warning heeded, and understood. That's not the first time I've heard less than stellar accounts regarding gecko. One thing with webkit is at least the option is there to use a different compiler (llvm/clang). And it looks like they're in the initial stages of unifying the build system to gyp (written in python, which Plan 9 already supports) - which is far better than autotools IMHO.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
One thing with webkit is at least the option is there to use a different compiler (llvm/clang). And it looks like they're in the initial stages of unifying the build system to gyp (written in python, which Plan 9 already supports) - which is far better than autotools IMHO. For the last year I've been supporting build bits @flock.com. You cannot build this shit without the gxx of the week.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thu, 28 Apr 2011 19:00:49 PDT errno er...@cox.net wrote: Though I don't understand why folks around here complain about linux so often and so vehemently, when the only reason why you're complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. Nobody *needs* linux. That is like saying people need McDonald's. What people need is to *eat*. Not the same thing. If they are forced to eat at McDonald's when they know better alternatives exist, they are going to complain. Bitterly.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Thursday, April 28, 2011 08:03:23 PM erik quanstrom wrote: Though I don't understand why folks around here complain about linux so often and so vehemently, when the only reason why you're complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. people who care about Doing Things Right are easy to upset. Bloat... can't live with it, can't live without it. ... I hope that something better comes along. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yaP_kc3y9w On Thursday, April 28, 2011 08:11:49 PM andrey mirtchovski wrote: errno, you sound like you may be trespassing on our collective 9fans lawn. i wave a cane in your general direction. Plan 9 rules and linux drools - I get it - but, wake me up when there's a Grand Unified Solution for implementing a perfectly clean, multi-purpose, general-use operating platform for an ad-hoc, rapidly (d)evolving, messy industry/market/society - that isn't itself intrinsically, hopelessly bloated in order to fulfill said purpose. Until then, complaining about de-facto linux bloat is a lot like complaining about death and taxes. Boring and disingenuous. IMHO, at least. (I'm just glad the collective plan 9 lawn expands far beyond the pointless linux-hate gazebo.)
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
clean, multi-purpose, general-use operating platform for an ad-hoc, rapidly (d)evolving, messy industry/market/society here: http://mirtchovski.com/p9/canthave.png
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
[1] For those gnashing teeth over glibc - might want to check out musl libc. It's no plan 9 libc, but it's definitely less worse than glibc. ``News: As of version 0.7.7, musl has been successfully bootstrapped by a third-party system integrator.'' hmm. they had to do more than just compile it? a library has to be `bootstrapped'? i blame the parents.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday 29 of April 2011 11:18:26 Charles Forsyth wrote:
complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things
you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your
organization.
it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS.
the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly
browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have
noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of
Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you
like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure
qmake (Qt's makefile generator) is mostly reasonable IMHO. consists of one
program (the qmake) which reads a rather simple project description
(myapp.pro) plus a bunch of platform description files
(/usr/lib{,64}/qt/mkspec/platform/qmake.conf + whatever it includes) and
outputs reasonable makefiles.
at any rate, the supposed replacements for autoconf/automake aren't shining
examples of engineering either -- usually big complex. i guess it's more
about mindset (``let's check every itty-gritty detail and let's abstract away
differences between platforms'') than the problem space, thou.
--
dexen deVries
[[[↓][→]]]
``In other news, STFU and hack.''
mahmud, in response to Erann Gat's ``How I lost my faith in Lisp''
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2308816
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
let's abstract away differences between platforms but they don't `abstract away': they enumerate them.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 11:12:55AM +0200, dexen deVries wrote:
qmake (Qt's makefile generator) is mostly reasonable IMHO. consists of one
program (the qmake) which reads a rather simple project description
(myapp.pro) plus a bunch of platform description files
(/usr/lib{,64}/qt/mkspec/platform/qmake.conf + whatever it includes) and
outputs reasonable makefiles.
at any rate, the supposed replacements for autoconf/automake aren't shining
examples of engineering either -- usually big complex. i guess it's more
about mindset (``let's check every itty-gritty detail and let's abstract away
differences between platforms'') than the problem space, thou.
The problem is not in the tool per se---R.I.S.K., used for KerGIS and
kerTeX (and others with no public version), is an example---but with the
programmers.
If programmers knew what they are using (C89 or C99 and that's all; or
POSIX etc.), the problem would be easily solved---these are the
cases solved by R.I.S.K.: programmer must know.
If the tool must guess what the program is using; furthermore if
for viral purpose and by educational repeating the wannabee
programmers are told to not care about standards, because GNU's
Not Unix and POSIX is bad, but use every chunk blessed by the GPL...
I don't know if there are black holes in the nature. But for sure mob
programming has managed to create computer ones; projects so bloated
that they are absorbing all the resources around with an emitted service
dimming more and more.
I'm finishing the integration of MetaPost in kerTeX (one auxiliary
program to fix and I can start testing), and I will have spent less time
from a very scarce free time redoing everything (distribution side) than
people trying to make TeX Live compiling for their plateform. (The
source code is the Medusa: you look at it and you are awed. That was
the aim.)
I claim this is a kind of lesson. (Same goes for GRASS - KerGIS even if
nobody cared when I did it.)
--
Thierry Laronde tlaronde +AT+ polynum +dot+ com
http://www.kergis.com/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday 29 of April 2011 11:44:31 tlaro...@polynum.com wrote: I don't know if there are black holes in the nature. But for sure mob programming has managed to create computer ones; projects so bloated that they are absorbing all the resources around with an emitted service dimming more and more. curiously enough, both black holes are understood to undergo evaporation (due to quantum tunneling) and communities undergo the so-called `evaporative cooling' -- where influx of `cold' (barely talented) members causes evaporation of the the `hot' (most talented) members. at any rate, `code removed is code debugged' is very true, but that's not something easily put on CV or boasted to friends. (...) mob programming (...) there's a lot of substarnce to offend certain projects with, no need to merely use style. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] ``In other news, STFU and hack.'' mahmud, in response to Erann Gat's ``How I lost my faith in Lisp'' http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2308816
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:04:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: [1] For those gnashing teeth over glibc - might want to check out musl libc. It's no plan 9 libc, but it's definitely less worse than glibc. ``News: As of version 0.7.7, musl has been successfully bootstrapped by a third-party system integrator.'' hmm. they had to do more than just compile it? a library has to be `bootstrapped'? i blame the parents. Really? I think it's fair enough to say that your standard library has been bootstrapped upon the first instance of it being baked into a new platform as the native libc. https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:18:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure Icebergs are justified when used as a temporary stop-gap until a native solution is devised and implemented. Thus, a webkit environment (AWE) seems like a pretty decent compromise until Plan 9 is finally able to treat the wild wild web like a first-class citizen. I have no clue how difficult it would be to port webkit to Plan 9 though, but I imagine it would be easier than writing a pure Plan 9 web browser engine (html, css, dom ecmascript) from scratch. (I just do basic backend web programming and linux systems administration - so I'm just speculating.) But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Apr 29, 2011 6:21 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:04:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: [1] For those gnashing teeth over glibc - might want to check out musl libc. It's no plan 9 libc, but it's definitely less worse than glibc. ``News: As of version 0.7.7, musl has been successfully bootstrapped by a third-party system integrator.'' hmm. they had to do more than just compile it? a library has to be `bootstrapped'? i blame the parents. Really? I think it's fair enough to say that your standard library has been bootstrapped upon the first instance of it being baked into a new platform as the native libc. https://github.com/chneukirchen/sabotage On Friday, April 29, 2011 02:18:26 AM Charles Forsyth wrote: complaining is because you _need_ linux... to furnish all the things you can't do with plan 9 - either personally, or within your organization. it's true, but at least i haven't got to run either Windows or MacOS. the underlying problem is that the things we might simply import (mainly browser) can't simply be imported. it's not just us: you might have noticed that Google's Picasaweb runs under Linux by including a copy of Wine as part of its iceberg. also google in any alternative-os list you like for a discussion of the hopelessness of ./configure Afaik, google has been distributing picasa with wine for years, it doesn't act like an intermediate solution, it seems told be their solution. Icebergs are justified when used as a temporary stop-gap until a native solution is devised and implemented. Thus, a webkit environment (AWE) seems like a pretty decent compromise until Plan 9 is finally able to treat the wild wild web like a first-class citizen. Seeing that plan 9 doesn't have a c++ compiler, i doubt it will ever be ported. Cinap runs opera 9, flash 7, even blender under linuxemu, though. You might want to take a look at it. 9hal.ath.cx. you can also use vnc on plan 9 if you 'need' to use the web. I have no clue how difficult it would be to port webkit to Plan 9 though, but I imagine it would be easier than writing a pure Plan 9 web browser engine (html, css, dom ecmascript) from scratch. (I just do basic backend web programming and linux systems administration - so I'm just speculating.) But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already. that's not logical. and from another post Until then, complaining about de-facto linux bloat is a lot like complaining about death and taxes. Boring and disingenuous. this is also illogical. i see nothing intellectually dishonest about a complaining about x being too y, and using z whenever possible. why can't x=motor vehicles, y=use too much gas, z=a bicycle. clearly one can't cycle to the west coast for a business trip. that doesn't mean you don't want to, and there's nothing dishonest about that desire. i don't mind a good lively discussion, but these comments seem a bit trollish to me. why don't we get back on track? - erik
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Apr 29, 2011, at 4:54 AM, dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: at any rate, `code removed is code debugged' is very true, but that's not something easily put on CV or boasted to friends. An alternative version, `deleted code is debugged code', has been used very successfully by myself and other colleagues. I first heard the term on a very large VAX/VMS project in 1992 where it succeed in making its way into frequent use.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 7:19 AM, errno er...@cox.net wrote: so I'm just speculating.) really? no one has noticed.
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:21:12 AM Jacob Todd wrote: Seeing that plan 9 doesn't have a c++ compiler, i doubt it will ever be ported. But APE has c++ (old version of gcc though). I expect that a webkit (or gecko) port would need to rely on APE, right? I guess I'd have to start with the build dependencies first, some of them might already be on contrib somewhere. Cinap runs opera 9, flash 7, even blender under linuxemu, though. You might want to take a look at it. 9hal.ath.cx. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll check it out. you can also use vnc on plan 9 if you 'need' to use the web. Yep, I'm aware of the vnc workaround... but, it's just the same as a native, or near-native approach. If the goal was to build a plan 9 network in my house for my friends and family to use, for the purpose of easy administration, according to plan 9 distributed practices - then needing to have linux/bsd boxen completely defeats the purpose, and is counter-productive. On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:32:09 AM erik quanstrom wrote: i don't mind a good lively discussion, but these comments seem a bit trollish to me. I have/had no intent, no interest, and no benefit in trolling; please don't accuse me of being antisocial. I apologize if disingenuous was the wrong term. why don't we get back on track? Ok: On Friday, April 29, 2011 05:32:09 AM erik quanstrom wrote: On Friday, April 29, 2011 03:19:23 AM errno wrote: But then again, why would anyone want a fully functional web experience on Plan 9 - what would be the purpose? Apparently nobody does, otherwise it'd be implemented already. that's not logical. I operated on the understanding that Plan 9 gets developed according to peoples' desire to scratch particular itches. I was also operating under the impression that the clean and well-designed nature of plan 9's abstractions and architecture would facilitate making hard problems easier. Rather than offering speculation, from which to be knocked down and/or insulted for, I figure maybe I should just ask: If it is accepted that people do in fact want a fully functional native (or native-ish) web experience on Plan 9, what is the logical explanation for it still not existing after so many years? (by web experience, I'm not talking about porting firefox and flash to Plan 9 - I'm talking about native or ported libraries for what wikipedia refers to as a web browser engine or layout engine; and by fully functional, I'm talking about something that can score at least an 80% or so on the acid2 test.)
Re: [9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
On Friday, April 29, 2011 09:05:39 PM errno wrote: Yep, I'm aware of the vnc workaround... but, it's just the same as a native, or near-native approach. I meant: [...] but, it's just _not_ the same as a native approach.
[9fans] Compiling 9atom kernel WAS: Re: spaces in filenames
OK,
So I'm trying to compile the pcf kernel from quanstro's 9atom.iso.bz2.
There seems to be an undocumented dependency on the quanstro/fis
contrib(1). (Without it, 8c complains that it can't find an include
file named fis.h or some such.) I now have that.
I've also added the two assembly routines (_tracein and _traceout) to
/sys/src/libc/386/trace.s, as specified, and rebuilt and reinstalled
libc.
Nevertheless, when running mk 'CONF=pcf', the build fails with the
following error:
8l -p -e -o 9pcf -T0xF0100020 -l l.8 plan9l.8 [...]
size 9pcf
_strayintrx: _tracein/_traceout not defined 5 5
_strayintrx: _tracein: not defined
_strayintrx: _traceout: not defined
mk: 8c -FTVw '-DKERNDATE='`{date ... : exit status=rc 5800: 8l 5804: error
The only source file which seems to reference '_strayintrx' is l.s.
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